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Nozick's Wilt Chamberlain example
Let's say a bunch of poor kids all pay to see Wilt Chamberlain play basketball. Wilt gets the money, the kids get to see the game. At the end of the day Wilt is richer and the kids are poorer. Since we wouldn't object to any one of these transactions, why should we object to the resulting pattern? Robert Nozick went further and argued that any "pattern-based" notion of justice would require continual and unjustified interference in personal liberties. That was one of the most famous claims in his Anarchy, State, and Utopia; here is another summary of the argument.
I'm all for the NBA but I've never been overwhelmed by this approach. I agree that there is "nothing unjust" about the Chamberlain outcome but still perhaps we can do better in consequentialist terms. Nozick's argument defeats egalitarian leveling but does it really refute, say, mildly progressive taxation? What if we could tax Wilt a bit and make life much better for the kids? Without invoking public choice skepticism about government (which indeed is important), what's so bad about that? Is it morally wrong? Wilt is still quite free and we get some social good in return.
I'm usually skeptical of moral arguments that don't confront the question of "at what margin" straight up. I will, however, buy this (abbreviated) argument:
1. A doctor is not required to devote his entire life, or even a part of it, to helping poor kids in Africa, even if he could create greater good by doing so. Personal autonomy matters.
2. The right to keep the product of your labor -- money! -- is a big part of autonomy, even though it is not always recognized as such.
3. Barring end-of-the-civilized-world exigencies, no one should be forced to part with more than a certain percentage of his or her income, even when valuable public goods are at stake. There is, after all, no end to good ideas for redistribution, not the least of which is the helicopter drop to Malawi. We all draw the line somewhere, so it's not enough to cite benevolence to defeat the claims of property rights and the demand for low taxes.
4. Adhering to such a percentage rule will have desirable consequentialist properties, given the public choice problems with government behavior. Thus a kind of consilience supports this moral view.
That all said, I do not believe we have a very clear or very scientific answer as to what the right percentage is. Furthermore "the proper percentage" is likely contingent upon historical circumstances. I take that as representing a partial -- but only partial -- endorsement of Nozick's Wilt Chamberlain argument and of course I reject the deontological ("just don't!") nature of Nozick's approach altogether.
Warning to extreme libertarians: Don't even try to argue that zero is the maximum permissible rate of taxation. Would you abolish all taxation today, immediately, if it meant a rapid collapse into social chaos?
Warning to social democrats: You are used to citing beneficience arguments to argue for raising taxes. But you reject beneficence arguments yourself, when you refuse to step into the shoes of Peter Singer and call for even more redistribution. I want to make you feel guilty about this tension. What you'd like to do is dismiss Singer with a separate argument and then turn your fire to the anti-tax types and feel that beneficence is always on your side. It isn't.
Here is my earlier post on Nozick's experience machine. Here is Will Wilkinson with more on Rawls. Going back to our earlier discussion, Ross Douthat has provided an excellent discussion of notable conservative books. I am a big fan of Nozick's book although a) I don't consider it "conservative," and b) I like the obscure sections best, such as the discussion of anarchy and government in the first part.
Posted by Tyler Cowen on March 6, 2008 at 07:08 AM in Philosophy | Permalink
Comments
Thank you for this interesting post.
To me, the confusion about Wilt arises from the attempt to model everything in terms of money.
Money is a relatively convenient metric for modeling behavior, but it clearly lacks the bandwidth to
capture society in all its hoary glory.
Oversimplification buys as much as obfuscation.
Cheers,
Chris
Posted by: C Smith at Mar 6, 2008 7:53:07 AM
I am not an opponent of taxation, but I worry (even panic) when I see how taxes map to expenditures. A friend once told me that he was happy to pay taxes "because I support national parks." When I pointed out to him that parks expenditures were probably way under 1% of the budget, he (a PhD economist), said, "oh well, I'm getting my money's worth."
For me the biggest problem is not tax and spend within this country that reduces social chaos (and augments other chaos, e.g., DEA) or even spending on international programs (Peace Corps being one of very few good ones), but tax and spend to attack other countries or subsidize certain groups.
It is the mechanism, once implemented, that can wreak havoc. Consider an alternative mechanism: Tax lotteries. Each department of government (DoD, DoI, DoJ, and others Dos) runs a lottery. People are required to buy as many tickets as their taxes, but they get to choose where the $$ goes. They may "win" a refund, but the average taxpayer still pays. Who would give to the DoD? Of those who gave, how much would they give? 60% of their total? Probably not. [This discussion would probably move to the next stage, politicians reorganizing departments to combine good/bad programs, e.g., Department of Killing Foreigners and Feeding Our Children, but I'll stop there.]
Bottom Line: I am more worried about spending than taxing.
Posted by: David Zetland at Mar 6, 2008 7:58:36 AM
Interesting discussion. Living in a Nordic social democracy myself, Norway, I pay taxes that I guess would seem outrageous for most Americans. Since I favor the view of the welfare state as an efficient and non-bureaucratic insurance policy, I more than happily pay my taxes. I still get to keep more than half of my income, and don't have to shell out for health insurance, private retirement plans or saving for my children's education. I get sick? Public health, no questions asked. Temporarily unemployed? The State is my insurance. Education for my children? Excellent public schools.
Of course, some of this can be exploited, but I find universalism to be preferable to the enormous bureaucracy that follows private insurance. I don't mind paying for some freeriders. Most people enjoy working more than sitting around waiting for the next welfare check, and that's what keeps the system more than floating. The perfect percentage for me? No idea, but probably higher than most here.
Posted by: karl strom at Mar 6, 2008 7:59:12 AM
I've always been more concerned with Progressive tax structures. As long as my tax percentage stays low (or zero) then why should I have any qualms about increasing the tax rate for Wilt or the doctor. As long as we all pay the same or close to the same rate, democratic institutions should be fairly good at determining that maximum rate.
Posted by: Rich at Mar 6, 2008 8:05:07 AM
Underlying all this is the curious matter of the remarkable materialism of the left, a matter noted in Bertrand de Jouvenal's odd book "The Ethics of Redistribution." Jouvenal says a lot of things that seem wrong to me, but he got this one right. People who are poor tend to have a lot of problems, but many of these are not much caused by poverty, yet the leftist response to just about anything is "let's take money away from those rich people and ...."
A bit of evidence (this is me, not Jouvenal): Why is it that religious belief should correlate as much as it does with sympathy for free markets, flat taxes, etc? My guess is that religious people, on the whole, are less materialistic than others and so don't get quite so exercised about differences in wealth.
Posted by: Alan Gunn at Mar 6, 2008 8:16:50 AM
why not just put a price ceiling on what Wilt charges instead of taxing him...?
Posted by: Charlie at Mar 6, 2008 8:17:56 AM
I think that all but the most extreme libertarians would agree that a progressive tax is acceptable. Even the flat tax proposals which get brought up from time to time incorporate a progressive schema: They typically -skip- the lowest earners.
Which means that what Tyler is really asking is, "Where do we draw the line?" It's a difficult question. I imagine most readers at MR will prefer the line to be a bit lower, most readers at the NYT may prefer the line higher. How do even go about framing a discussion of where the high water mark of taxation should be?
As with David Zetland, I tend to be concerned with the spending side of things: Much government spending may attempt to help Wilts' customers, but how does it accomplish this? As always, the devil is in the details, and we have existing government programs for drugs prohibition, substance abuse in general, medical problems, employment problems... sheesh the list goes on and I could be typing them up for pages.
I think that Milton Friedman nailed it in his support of the negative income tax. You hand every American a check for $X and get rid of many of the social aid programs. Much less bureaucracy, much more effective distribution, and most importantly the most respect for human autonomy. So I say draw the line at or near where it is now, max it out around 30% or so, and incorporate a negative income tax to both keep things very progressive and to respect human autonomy.
Posted by: Mercutio at Mar 6, 2008 8:26:32 AM
The idea that we can extrapolate principles of justice from the revealed intuitions of odd hypothetical examples, has plagued philosophy. Clearly we all have intuitions about fairness and justice in certain situations but they pretty much never make some neat framework and it would be odd if they did. Our intuitions have evolved to deal with specific and not abstract situations.
With regards taxation, the only credible arguments for and against are instrumental rather than justice based. People want to live a certain life and if they see that being possible within a certain system they are happy with it. People who want to be rich are not happy with the Nordic welfare state because it's harder to get rich there. People who want a safety net, like Karl, and who don't mind not being so well-off in material terms, are happy there.
People in the US, it seems to me, are less happy with taxation because there is a meme that it is theft. Moreso, however, it is because they don't trust the government to spend the money wisely and they often think that even if the government were wise, it wouldn't allocate the resources as efficiently as private individuals. Americans, more than Europeans, also think that people are morally responsible for their problems. These are all empirical issues that can be answered with research. There's no reason to be ideological about it. I'm somewhat happy paying taxes in Finland (I'm less sanguine about freeloaders than Karl). I'd be far less so about paying tax in the US.
Whatever works.
Posted by: Finnsense at Mar 6, 2008 8:35:26 AM
The way I see it, the public good created from the tax must outweigh the deadweight loss of the tax. Remember, taxing Wilt is the same as taxing the poor kids. Either way, Wilt won't play as much...
Posted by: Nate at Mar 6, 2008 8:40:12 AM
The problem with a "mildly progressive taxation" is the slippery slope. Any institution which is not libertarian in principle will start slipping down that slope, as the US Government did when it started taxing incomes in the beginning of the twentieth-century and a few years later what was just "mild" became an extortion (I think it went up from 10% to a 95% max, on certain kinds of "extreme" incomes).
Posted by: Fabio Franco at Mar 6, 2008 8:40:26 AM
"Any institution which is not libertarian in principle will start slipping down that slope"
Why? If the institution is aware that making taxes more progressive will cause harm, why would it do it? Finland is heavily socially democratic but it has made taxation less progressive over the last decade.
Posted by: Finnsense at Mar 6, 2008 8:46:05 AM
I'm unclear about the structure of your "argument", Prof. Cowen. Is (3) supposed to follow from (1) and (2)? If so, where does (4) come from? It seems like an independent assertion, tacked on to the argument at the end.
Posted by: Brock at Mar 6, 2008 8:47:40 AM
One problem here is that the Chamberlain example loads the dice by assuming that all inequality is the result of benign voluntary transactions, like the sale of tickets. (Though the argument would be slightly stronger if Wilt's fans were adults.)
That's true in some cases. If lots of people are willing to pay to see an athlete or entertainer, for example, then the analogy holds. But to assume that this is the general case is pretty naive.
So while I agree that,
"The right to keep the product of your labor -- money! -- is a big part of autonomy," I don't agree that all personal wealth is a product of one's own labor.
Posted by: Bernard Yomtov at Mar 6, 2008 8:58:06 AM
As the first proposer of Anarchy, State and Utopia in the conservative booklocker in the previous post, I feel I ought to respond to at least the Wilt Chamberlain point. (As to whether or not it's conservative, Tyler and I can simply disagree on terminology.) I don't see the Wilt Chamberlain example as upsetting, say, the case for progressive taxation. What it upsets is the notion of any particular notion of an ideal pattern of social structure. If your notion of progressive taxation fixes the marginal rates with respect to income at some set of levels, it presumably does so for some reason. Whatever that reason is (and the desired equality of income distribution is only one -- funding of public goods is another) subsequent voluntary exchange can mess it up badly. Thus, you had some conception of how equal you wanted the income distribution to be and voluntary exchange messed it up. It's not just the autonomy of Wilt to keep the fruits of his labor -- it's the autonomy of his customers to make him richer than you want him to be.
Posted by: jfalk at Mar 6, 2008 9:09:01 AM
I don't even buy the first part of your argument... Why are the poor kids any poorer? Assuming they are rational actors in an efficient market: They paid to see Wilt because they were getting more value than the cost of the ticket. They are actually richer after they see Wilt play.
The argument for taxing Will is really that the market is not efficient enough to accurately price-in and collect fees for all the things we "should" be paying for. (Assuming we have a collective responsibility for helping our fellow humans and for paying the externality costs of our actions)
Posted by: Mark Denovich at Mar 6, 2008 9:10:47 AM
Am I the only one who saw "Wilt Chamberlain" in the headline and eagerly anticipated a "more sex is safer sex" post? Now I'm sipping my morning coffee resigned to another day that won't quite live up to expectation.
Philly Fan
Posted by: SIxer Guy at Mar 6, 2008 9:30:39 AM
I think all these discussions ignore the really difficult issue: Who gets to be part of the polity or nation? Much of this is tied to the problem of aggregating different preferences both for taxation and spending and its unintended consequences. You can't get away from tribal problems.
Norwegians would be less happy to pay for the welfare state if Norway were 65% Muslims who believed in expanding sharia and spending to keep public facilities single sex, restraining out-marriage, and teaching Koranic law.
Also, large federal organizations have to deal with warfare, espionage, and terrorism. A world in which Russia turned expansionist and the US isolationist would rapidly upend the European social compact. Here too you need to postulate necessary public goods in a world of imperfect and muddling authorities. You can't magically say, No military for Vietnam or Iraq, but we'll be there if it's WWII!
And where there ethnic factions with different goals things really get problematic. Cf. urban USA or Quebec.
Posted by: jj at Mar 6, 2008 9:33:03 AM
I'm not following you. "1. A doctor is not required to devote his entire life, or even a part of it, to helping poor kids in Africa"; but "no one should be forced to part with more than a certain percentage of his or her income". If the doctor is being taxed, isn't he having to devote part of his life--that part spent earning the money to pay the taxes--to helping poor kids (or more likely corrupt officials)? Granted he's not having to actually go to Africa, which may make the taxes more attractive, but that's still time which he could be spending birdwatching.
You could make an argument that the State is justified in forcing me to pay 0% of my income, or 100%, but I'd have a hard time swallowing that, say, 20% is justified but 20.01% is not. And if we accept 20.01% today, next year it'll be 23%, and up from there.
Ideally, the State ought to provide services which I willingly buy, no coercion needed.
Posted by: cdeboe at Mar 6, 2008 9:49:32 AM
Very interesting post. It's sort of funny that you should be discussing this at the same time that Brad DeLong is arguing for an end to the "Age of Friedman".
It seems to me that your logic is correct. There is no absolute prohibition on progressive taxation. The question is what is the approximately correct solution. Lots of room for argument there.
Thanks for laying out the issues so cogently.
Posted by: Scot at Mar 6, 2008 9:49:32 AM
If libertarianism is principally concerned with individual liberty, than consistently applying its principles to dismiss theft of all forms seems like a rather benign conclusion (no matter how old the practice in question). That hardly seems like an extreme position at all.
“Barring end-of-the-civilized-world exigencies, no one should be forced to part with more than a certain percentage of his or her income, even when valuable public goods are at stake. “
Arguing that you should rightfully keep all of that which belongs to you is sensible – not extreme. Suggesting however that your neighbor or fellow citizens are entitled to take some arbitrary percentage of your property by force however is quite strange.
“Would you abolish all taxation today, immediately, if it meant a rapid collapse into social chaos?”
Ending confiscatory taxation in no way guarantees a shift into a Mad Max Universe – neither can the continuation of any particular tax regime guarantee tranquility.
Posted by: extreme libertarian at Mar 6, 2008 9:53:32 AM
Nothing especially wrong with what you're saying, jj. That's why taxes are a question of what's practical, not a question over ideology. But be careful playing the tribal card. The experience from Norway, with our very few Muslim immigrants (even fewer in Finland), is that they quickly adapt to our social democrat mentality and are happy to pay taxes to support our secular, gay-friendly, pro-choice, affirmative action government. In fact, a large majority of Asian and African immigrants vote for left-of-(Norwegian)-center parties. Of course, these parties are also pro-immigration...
Posted by: karl strom at Mar 6, 2008 9:54:44 AM
RE: "the proper percentage" is likely contingent upon historical circumstances
Major exigencies and true public goods offer the strongest justifications for taxation and government spending. So the "proper percentage" would be higher (in relative terms) in states where people are poorer. (Although it should be lower in absolute terms than is seen in practice, across the spectrum of wealth.)
In the real world of course, the percentage of GDP controlled by government always grows once wealth has been achieved - and this growth in government control has nothing to do with exigencies or true public goods.
Posted by: Paris at Mar 6, 2008 9:56:35 AM
Nice post. I agree that consequentialism (with a rough metric of additive utility) should determine the optimal tax rate, just as consequentialism should be the basis of all public policy, and indeed all action.
Posted by: mk at Mar 6, 2008 10:00:35 AM
"Norwegians would be less happy to pay for the welfare state if Norway were 65% Muslims who believed in expanding sharia and spending to keep public facilities single sex, restraining out-marriage, and teaching Koranic law."
This is true but I'm not sure how it applies to any developed country. The US does not have a "small" state because people have different values. It has it for a variety of reasons. Canada is every bit as multicultural as the US yet they have a decent safety net. Sweden also has a very large refugee population which doesn't dent their welfare state - even though refugees are far harder to assimilate than immigrants.
Posted by: Finnsense at Mar 6, 2008 10:00:53 AM
Nozick's line of thought is conservative in so far as market-economics comes out of conservative thought and not vice-versa. Adam Smith and Edmund Burke were intellectual conservatives -- not libertarians. Before them, the late scholastics who had an even earlier understanding of free markets such as Juan de Mariana, Luis Saravia de la Calle were also "conservative." The enlightenment period is largely influenced by the "conservative" political and economic theorists of the medieval period.
Posted by: jip at Mar 6, 2008 10:02:44 AM
To me, everyone should be able to keep the vast majority of the product of their labor. So the upper limit on marginal tax rates should be in the 20-30% range.
Also I believe that every citizen should have to bear the cost of government as their duty as a citizen.
The flat tax (with a deductible at the poverty rate) seems fair to me. Everyone has to donate the same percentage of their labor(income) to the society. But for those with income so low that taxes would push them into poverty they pay less.
Posted by: eccdogg at Mar 6, 2008 10:02:49 AM
The first observation is the one with greatest moral weight. Taking earned income from a person is the same as taking the hours of their life spent in labor when they could have been otherwise engaged. In my mind, this creates a good deal of drag against each hypothetical increase in taxation.
I think, as Mr. Yomtov suggests, I feel less drag in a taxation of unearned wealth, but we'd have to agree on some sticky terms.
In practice, one upper limit on the percentage would be the point at which it ceases to produce greater public goods (i.e. growth and innovation slow to damaging levels). This number is context dependent, in that a public good of, say, healthcare may only be available because you have a highly innovative neighbor generating beneficial externalities left and right.
As a result, it seems plausible that the point at which we become uncomfortable for taking too many hours of a man's life can sometimes be lower than the point of optimum utility and sometimes higher. Both are moving targets.
Posted by: JasonL at Mar 6, 2008 10:07:35 AM
Why not just tax Wilt because he's taller than the kids?
Posted by: d.cous. at Mar 6, 2008 10:22:51 AM
This just isn't a very interesting post at all. What's the point of analyzing a carefully constructed deontological argument from a consequentialist viewpoint in this way? The entire point of such an argument is to tease out the results of a set of premises and to convince you that those results follow, EVEN IF they intuitively seem wrong (probably because you are uncomfortable with the consequences of those results).
Color me unsurprised that if you don't like deontology, you'll find the results of one of their arcane thought experiments unconvincing, but don't think consequentialists don't have equally arcane and unconvincing constructions.
Meh.
Posted by: Drew at Mar 6, 2008 10:30:52 AM
Finnsense: "Canada is every bit as multicultural as the US yet they have a decent safety net."
Oh, really? There are huge cultural differences in the groups that make each nation "multicultural".
Significant Canadian minority groups (with % of total population)
Asian - 8.8%
Black - 2.2%
Hispanic/latino - 0.7%
Significan U.S. minority groups
Hispanic/Latino - 12.5%
Black - 12.4%
Asian - 4.4%
You may not be aware of the cultural differences between Asians and the other two minorities. Asians in North America are much more likely to be economically self-sufficient, to value education, and to become entrepreneurs. They rarely require a safety net.
Hispanic/Latinos and blacks are the primary beneficiaries of the U.S. safety net for Americans under the age of 65.
Posted by: John Dewey at Mar 6, 2008 10:30:55 AM
Ideally, the taxes collected on Mr Chamberlain will be put to use in such a way that increases domestic tranquility sufficiently enough to create a society in which Mr Chamberlain may actually have more personal liberty.
Posted by: john doe #2 at Mar 6, 2008 11:06:46 AM
Would you abolish all taxation today, immediately, if it meant a rapid collapse into social chaos?
This is the old "the Constitution is not a suicide pact" false dichotomy. I don't see any compelling data that social chaos would ensue from the abolition of compulsory taxation.
I would argue that voluntary tax payments documented in the public record would lead to social pressure for sufficient tax revenue to support the government, the defense, and maybe even some modest entitlements. You'd still have lots of noncontributors, just like you have lots of discourteous drivers on the road, but there will be enough contributors, just like there are enough courteous rule-abiding drivers, to keep the system working very well.
Posted by: Rimfax at Mar 6, 2008 11:15:17 AM
John Dewey,
Was there some reason you missed out the Quebecois? They actually speak an entirely different language to the rest and given the fact that a large number of them want to be a seperate country you would think they would be radically opposed to a social safety net.
I take your point but it might be interesting to see whether african-american culture would be in the state it is in, had they had a decent safety net and a less superficial equality of opportunity.
Posted by: Finnsense at Mar 6, 2008 11:38:09 AM
The argument is focused on inequality of results and redistribution of income, not progressive taxation per se. You want to knock one of the legs out from the "progressive" argument.
From Nozick's example, there is the obvious solution of making it illegal for poor kids to give money to Wilt Chamberlain. In effect, punitive progressive taxation delivers the same result as supply declines and prices rise.
And why allow something that is bad instead of changing the behavior? We don't allow bank robbery, then take the money back and set the robbers free to rob again. Similarly, all progressive taxation does is allow the poor to stupidly (if it's smart we wouldn't need to protect them from it, right?) give their money to rich people, then the government takes it back, and the poor people give it to the rich again! Perhaps a forced savings plan is a better solution, it can break the cycle of income violence.
Posted by: 8 at Mar 6, 2008 11:40:42 AM
"I don't see any compelling data that social chaos would ensue from the abolition of compulsory taxation."
Because no-one has been unwise enough to try it.
Posted by: Finnsense at Mar 6, 2008 11:45:00 AM
From a sense of humanity and the public interest, we should all favor more progressive taxation and better opportunities for the poor in the United States.
From a sense of hard-headed economics, we should all favor greater deference to personal autonomy than one sees is most advanced post-industrial economies.
The U.S. is so out of step with most of the advanced democracies that we can have both -- we could improve progressive taxation and the social safety net and still be the most market-oriented rich economy in the world.
Posted by: Parke at Mar 6, 2008 11:56:18 AM
Not much of an argument Finnsense - could have suggested that flight was not possible for similar reason at one point in the past - or further that a society with out human chattel were also an impossibility.
Posted by: extreme libertarian at Mar 6, 2008 12:00:53 PM
We should tax the kids on their payments for leisure and not tax Wilt on his receipt of income for labor and good will.
Posted by: guy in the veal calf office at Mar 6, 2008 12:37:16 PM
extreme libertarian,
Yes it was flippant but really, imagine a society with no social safety net for the unfortunate and where some people live in incredible luxury. If I was poor I know what I'd do. Europe doesn't have progressive taxation because the rich want it, but because the poor demand it. The US is unique among rich countries in managing to convince the poorest members of society that it is in their present or future interests to have a minimal safety net. With no safety net at all (or a discretionary one based on the good will of family and the community) see what happens.
Posted by: Finnsense at Mar 6, 2008 12:38:07 PM
Haven't had time to read all comments, so apologies if I repeat anything. What exactly is the problem with allowing Wilt to dispose of his income as HE sees fit? (i.e. no tax) Are we assuming that without tax he would stick most of it under his mattress and not do anything useful with it? Because whatever else he does with the money, spend, invest or donate it, he's contributing to somebody's welfare.
Posted by: Ryan at Mar 6, 2008 12:46:39 PM
Warning to extreme libertarians: Don't even try to argue that zero is the maximum permissible rate of taxation. Would you abolish all taxation today, immediately, if it meant a rapid collapse into social chaos?
I think this is rather loaded. You could also post a blog wondering what the socially optimal rate of rape was (in terms of rapes per 100,000 of the population). Then you could say, "Warning to extreme feminists: Don't even try to argue that zero is the maximum permissible rate of rape. Would you abolish all rape today, immediately, if it meant a rapid collapse into social chaos?"
Now how would the radical feminist answer that? "Yes! Er, no, uh, well I reject your premise!" Same thing here.
And yes, we've had taxation for a long time, just like we've had rape for a long time.
I imagine not a single person posting on this thread would even consider breaking into Wilt Chamberlain's house (or pickpocketing him) in order to donate money to Africans. Right? If you caught your kid doing that, you would correct him, saying, "Yes, I know you wanted to help people with the money, and that's very noble, but it wasn't your money. We live in a society with property rights, and you can't take what isn't yours. If people started doing that, then we'd immediately descend into social chaos."
By the way, my opinion on the justice of taxation (i.e. institutionalized theft) has nothing to do with my views on egalitarianism. Yes, I do think rich people have a moral duty to help the poor, and all of us are not doing a very good job on that front. (I imagine just about everyone posting on this thread is in the top 0.5% of the world's population in terms of standard of living; this has nothing to do with Wilt Chamberlain's money, it is all of our money.) But that still doesn't mean rich people should have their money taken against their will and given to charities, least of all by a bunch of politicians.
Posted by: Bob Murphy at Mar 6, 2008 1:07:06 PM
The U.S. is so out of step with most of the advanced democracies that we can have both -- we could improve progressive taxation and the social safety net and still be the most market-oriented rich economy in the world.
U.S. taxation and social spending is not that different with Western Europe. Social Democracy has been fully embraced by the United States. It is largely an uneducated stereotype that the U.S. has no sort of "social safety net" - The U.S. spends more than it can afford of its "social safety net".
Social Democracy is more successful in Western Europe than in the United States, largely because Europe externalized the costs of 18th and 19th century slavery and imperialism, while the U.S. has internalized the costs of 18th and 19th century slavery and imperialism. The decendents of victims of U.S. imperialism and slavery of the 18th and 19th century live in the U.S.. Where as, with France for example, the victims of imperialism and slavery live in Haiti, or Indochina, or Guiana, or Algers, etc... or for the U.K., the enslaved people live in South Africa, India, Zimbabwe, etc.
If you included former colonial territories and their citizens in the health, crime, and social spending statistics of Western Europe, as they should be, then obviously European Social Democracy is a failure compared to the United States.
An even more generous was of looking at it, Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, etc. are also part of Europe. The statistics look so good for social democracy, largely because Europe is so balkanized into economicly polarized regions. If we broke the U.S. up into a bunch of small countries, and segregated the richest into some areas and the poorest into other areas, so that we compared only the richest most privledged 10% of Americans, to say Norway, America would win hands down. When looking at Europe and the success of social democracy, we need to take all of Europe into consideration, not just a segregation chunk of the richest Europeans.
Posted by: Rex Rhino at Mar 6, 2008 1:11:27 PM
Tyler said Don't even try to argue that zero is the maximum permissible rate of taxation. Would you abolish all taxation today, immediately, if it meant a rapid collapse into social chaos?
Thanks for the straw man Tyler.
It is not either/or, not to mention that politically we can't get there from here. One can argue that the state has royally screwed things up for the average person, or even for a sizeable minority of people. Therefore an intermediate policy of a minarchist state, or a Milton Friedman style compromise minarchist state (e.g. taxation funded universal vouchers for 100% privatized K-12 schools, thus ending the urban nightmare that the Democrats have foisted upon blacks and Hispanics in the US) would seem to be a needed moral (not to mention political) first step before we attempted the only morally acceptable second step of no coercive taxation.
After a generation of compromise minarchy that repaired most of the damage caused by the state it is not unreasonable to say that we would not plunge into social chaos upon the end of coercive taxation.
I realize many people can't imagine a country without coerced taxation, I couldn't get there myself until rather recently. The mental barrier I think most people have is that they envision far too big of a state, and thus it is simply silly to think that charitable contributions to the state could come close to being enough. So the solution to that end is to reduce government spending low enough that it doesn't appear insane to even try. We had that low spending level in the 19th century, so it is indeed achievable.
Upon achieving a low government spending level, the question is would people voluntraily give up their money for the greater good? The answer is obvious, Americans already voluntarily give up boatloads of money for the greater good each year, it is called charity. The US is already radically more charitable than high tax "rich" countries, likely because people feel less need to give money to the needy when they think that is the state's job, especially when they have far less money to actually give away due to high taxation.
Add in the selfish motive of contributing to national defense (genuine defense, not defense of socialist freeriding Europe or defense of the rest of the world) and it becomes even easier to imagine voluntary taxation at levels high enough to be workable.
Add in an increased localization of government spending (e.g. towns pay for their own roads, not state goverments let alone the federal government) and the contributions are even easier to imagine.
So Tyler, once you get past your artificial either/or strawman, it is indeed possible to achieve the morally correct level of 0% coercive taxation without social chaos. We just can't get there from here thanks to the damage caused by the Democrats and their conspirators in the Republican party such as borrow-and-spend-and-spend-Bush. We need an intermediate period of time for it to be politically possible.
Posted by: happyjuggler0 at Mar 6, 2008 1:19:13 PM
An alternative argument is one of government paternalism to Wilt- the argument is that our fictional Wilt, in this case, could care less about a widening wealth gap and poverty among the poor. The government takes some of his money and protects him with laws to protect his property (such as the remainder of his money) with police and courts. The government redistributes partially to alleviate the criminal impulses that would threaten his property personally. Third, as an extension of the previous, the government redistributes it in an act of self-preservation to avoid revolution and massive redistribution.
Posted by: akatsuki at Mar 6, 2008 1:42:45 PM
Warning to extreme libertarians: Don't even try to argue that zero is the maximum permissible rate of taxation. Would you abolish all taxation today, immediately, if it meant a rapid collapse into social chaos?
I think this is rather loaded. You could also post a blog wondering what the socially optimal rate of rape was (in terms of rapes per 100,000 of the population). Then you could say, "Warning to extreme feminists: Don't even try to argue that zero is the maximum permissible rate of rape. Would you abolish all rape today, immediately, if it meant a rapid collapse into social chaos?"
Well, I'm happy to let Cowen argue with the libertarian extremists. But the problem with Nozick, is that he really is very extreme. And his arguments are not utilitarian based. So I don't really see how you can agree with Nozick, even a little, and not be an extreme libertarian. On the other hand, if you are a utilitarian libertarian, you are not much of a 'libertarian' anymore. You give up the right to call taxation institutionalized theft, and I think it's easy to show that once you admit a flat tax, it is very difficult to philosophically justify avoiding progressive taxation under all circumstances. Apparently Cowen is embracing this view, which does not surprise me given what I have read of his previously. At this level, we simply disagree on what level of taxation is reasonable or appropriate, and how efficiently the government can accomplish some tasks in comparison to the private market. I think the only fundamental disagreement that may continue to exist is that libertarians insist that governments 'not interfere in markets'. I can appreciate where they're coming from, but to me, the existence of the government is a pretty big factor in any market so to speak of 'not intefering' does not always make sense, in my opinion.
Posted by: mpowell at Mar 6, 2008 1:42:50 PM
Hey, cool! Bob Murphy used to be a professor of mine.
This post and discussion demonstrate for me the difficulty of coming up with a morally consistent view of taxation. I shall have to give this more thought.
I have much less trouble reconciling my view of morality with taxation when it is used only for the provision of "public goods" such as national defense, but the cutoff for what is and isn't a public good (and yes, I know the textbook definition) is still somewhat ambiguous. A scenario in which a public good's provision is more beneficial to one group of people than to another is very easy to imagine, but I'm not sure how one could or should avoid this.
That said, I do have a problem with taxation aimed specifically at wealth redistribution. Once a "rich person" gets a paycheck, it isn't as though they've just gotten their compensation for their contribution to society, and that money disappears into their vaults, so that they may swim in it like Scroodge McDuck. They go out and invest that money and/or spend it on consumption. Those same dollars get lent to poor people trying to buy a house, and pay poor people who do rich people's lawn work, or stock the shelves at grocery stores.
Posted by: d.cous. at Mar 6, 2008 1:44:23 PM
Bernard Y writes-
'"The right to keep the product of your labor -- money! -- is a big part of autonomy," I don't agree that all personal wealth is a product of one's own labor.' Assuming that you don't agree with what Tyler actually said - product of your labor, not wealth, I suggest an experiment. Quit your job and let us know if the product of your labor is >0.
Posted by: Rich Berger at Mar 6, 2008 1:45:30 PM
"4. Adhering to such a percentage rule will have desirable consequentialist properties".
Desirable to whom? Wilt? If so, then why doesn't he just give to charity? If not to Wilt, then what about other the stuff that he wants to do?
Posted by: Jeff at Mar 6, 2008 1:55:34 PM
3. Barring end-of-the-civilized-world exigencies, no one should be forced to part with more than a certain percentage of his or her income, even when valuable public goods are at stake. There is, after all, no end to good ideas for redistribution, not the least of which is the helicopter drop to Malawi. We all draw the line somewhere, so it's not enough to cite benevolence to defeat the claims of property rights and the demand for low taxes.
I meant to ask here, are you talking about the highest marginal tax bracket? That's a little different than percentage of total income.
That said, I do have a problem with taxation aimed specifically at wealth redistribution.
What if you can show that a more equal wealth distribution is itself a public good?
Posted by: mpowell at Mar 6, 2008 2:00:09 PM
Don't even try to argue that zero is the maximum permissible rate of taxation. Would you abolish all taxation today, immediately, if it meant a rapid collapse into social chaos?
Zero may or may not be the maximum desirable rate of taxation, but this is not a very good argument. If you posed the same question about almost any proposed reform, the answer would be no. For example:
Would you [abolish slavery, end Prohibition, let women vote] today, immediately, if it meant a rapid collapse into social chaos?
The question assumes that reducing taxes to zero immediately would result in social chaos. Since that's what you're trying to argue, it's not good form to assume it in your question.
And of course, "immediately" is only one of several possible time scales over which tax reductions could be achieved.
Out of curiosity, in your ideal system, how would the Federal tax rate differ from the existing tax rate?
Posted by: Christopher Rasch at Mar 6, 2008 2:21:58 PM
The maximum desirable rate of taxation is anything less than 50 percent, since anything more than that represents majority ownership over an individual's labor, and therefore constitutes slavery.
Posted by: Bandwagon Smasher at Mar 6, 2008 2:31:50 PM
"If I was poor I know what I'd do. Europe doesn't have progressive taxation because the rich want it, but because the poor demand it."
Finnsense: What you have described here is extortion. In Finland (or anywhere in Europe), is it legal for any collective/individual besides the government to lawfully extort another individual(group of citizens)?
Posted by: Jay at Mar 6, 2008 2:38:03 PM
Finnsense, why does a safety net have to be government supplied? Other institutions (familial, religious, civic, etc...) seem much better suited to the task and don't require compulsory taxation to function. It seems to me as we transfer more responsibility for maintaining a safety net from low level decentralized organizations to high level centralized organizations th effectiveness of such programs will tend to deteriorate. In addition, it seems to encourage individuals to ignore pressing needs around them as they have fewer means to help (due to taxation) and lower motivation (it's the government's responsibility to help those in need, not mine!).
Posted by: charles at Mar 6, 2008 3:19:08 PM
As others have pointed out the demographic comparisons of Canada and Sweden to the United States just don't hold water.
Canada's main minority group is Asian (Chinese, Indian, and Filipino). Canada just doesn't have a large, lower IQ underclass. Canada is, wisely, taking advantage of the global brain drain to siphon off educated high IQ immigrants from Asia.
Sweden's main minority group is their fellow Scandinavians -- the Finns.
Posted by: jim at Mar 6, 2008 3:22:04 PM
"What if you can show that a more equal wealth distribution is itself a public good?"
A very good question, thanks for responding. My gut reaction is to say that I would still be against it, because it would be worse for the individuals from whom the wealth is being taken. This probably raises more questions than it answers, and I admit to having not thought this through completely.
The conclusion that I come to morally is that I cannot condone a bad thing done for the right reasons, or at least that I won't if I don't have to. If I could provide a good life for my family and give a substantial amount of money to charity every year, and all I had to do was sell cocaine to finance terrorism, I would still say it is wrong and that I shouldn't do it. I realize that this is an extreme example, but I don't think it's a straw man.
Posted by: d.cous. at Mar 6, 2008 3:22:35 PM
I've recently heard that only 50% of households pay income tax. I'm very curious if there is any truth to it. If this is the case, then our tax system is clearly far too progressive.
I personally believe that if you aren't paying taxes, you shouldn't get to have input on how tax money is spent. I'm very annoyed that my fellow Californians have passed propositions to implement new spending programs paid for by a minority of taxpayers. Most recently there was the proposition for a new the mental health program paid by those who earn over a million annually. Earlier, it was new programs for kids under 5 paid by smokers. If all voters want a new program and are willing to chip in for it, I might disagree, but at least it has some legitimacy. I find it really offensive to have voters say "I want this program, but I want that person over there to pay for it." That feels like theft to me, no matter how wonderful the cause.
Posted by: Jenny at Mar 6, 2008 3:59:52 PM
I've recently heard that only 50% of households pay income tax. I'm very curious if there is any truth to it. If this is the case, then our tax system is clearly far too progressive.
I personally believe that if you aren't paying taxes, you shouldn't get to have input on how tax money is spent. I'm very annoyed that my fellow Californians have passed propositions to implement new spending programs paid for by a minority of taxpayers. Most recently there was the proposition for a new the mental health program paid by those who earn over a million annually. Earlier, it was new programs for kids under 5 paid by smokers. If all voters want a new program and are willing to chip in for it, I might disagree, but at least it has some legitimacy. I find it really offensive to have voters say "I want this program, but I want that person over there to pay for it." That feels like theft to me, no matter how wonderful the cause.
Posted by: Jenny at Mar 6, 2008 4:00:59 PM
"Would you abolish all taxation today, immediately, if it meant a rapid collapse into social chaos?"
Isn't this a bit of a non sequitor? The reason people are extreme libertarians is because they don't think zero taxes would lead to social chaos. This is the equivalent of asking an athiest, "Would you still not believe in God if he actually existed?"
Posted by: Doug Colkitt at Mar 6, 2008 4:18:33 PM
"Arguing that you should rightfully keep all of that which belongs to you is sensible – not extreme."
Indeed.
"Suggesting however that your neighbor or fellow citizens are entitled to take some arbitrary percentage of your property by force however is quite strange."
Imagining that force or violence are necessarily involved when your neighbors ask you to help by returning a portion of the income/property you earn and maintain in the context of your community's support is. . . unwell.
Posted by: jack lecou at Mar 6, 2008 4:19:29 PM
Wilt Chamberlain is such a weird example. I think he retired from basketball in 1972. He has been dead since 1999.
Posted by: Chris at Mar 6, 2008 4:50:17 PM
Jack Lecou,
Taxation obviously does involve force. That's just an accurate description of what happens. To say someone is unwell or insane for believing that is silly.
The argument is how much should authorities forcibly remove from the better off to redistribute to the less well-off. And how much should be taken to pay for public goods.
You can plausibly argue the extreme libertarian argument as being naive, or misguided, or even immoral. But taxation is not a voluntary activity, it's backed up by the threat of the state's monopoly of force.
A vast majority of people think this is a good thing, although there are arguments about how much to confiscate.
Implying insanity is rarely wise in public policy debates.
Posted by: david at Mar 6, 2008 4:50:39 PM
finnsense: "it might be interesting to see whether african-american culture would be in the state it is in, had they had a decent safety net and a less superficial equality of opportunity."
What are you talking about? Do you mean that the hundreds of billions in dollars that have been transferred to minorities over the past 40 years were insufficient to provide a "decent safety net"?
It was not enough, then, that the white majority in the U.S. paid for housing, food stamps, education and job training, medical care, daycare, and welfare payments for the "disadvantaged minorities".
It was not enough, then, that the white majority in the U.S. paid most of the bill for bus transit systems used mostly by minorities.
It was not enough, then, that minorities, through affirmative action, were and are given special consideration for jobs and educational opportunities - in other words, that white Americans have been discriminated against.
No, Mr. Finnsense, it must be plainly obvious to those living across an ocean what the real problem is. The evil, rich white majority is clearly suppressing their fellow human beings, and denying them a "decent safety net".
Posted by: John Dewey at Mar 6, 2008 4:51:52 PM
David-
Implying insanity was intemperate, and I apologize. But I find the view that taxation = force to be quite strange. I know I'm not the first, but I get fed up sometimes.
I can go to a cafe, and order a cup of coffee, but when they ask for $2.00 back, is there force involved? After all, they might call the police if I refused to pay. But the $2.00 is in my possession, what right have they to take it by force?
If you do not wish to pay your share of society's burdens, don't impose yours on us. Admittedly determining that share is an inexact science, but paying it does not involve some fundamental sacrifice of any moral principal. It is an exercise of the perfectly agreeable principle that what's mine is mine, and what's yours is yours.
Posted by: jack lecou at Mar 6, 2008 4:59:30 PM
Wilt Chamberlain palyed hoew long?
The average MLB player last 4 years.So i guess an NBA palyer will last a litle more.They have to make money for a whole life in 10 to 15 years.You, the nerd tath want to give away his money ,not yours ,will be teaching and writing useless papers into 80 years old or even more.
No and the pension dont suffice
Posted by: karl at Mar 6, 2008 5:15:59 PM
lecou:
Hmmm. I think you are being willfully obtuse. Comparing a voluntary transaction (Starbucks) to taxation makes no sense. If you can't see the difference then you need to revisit Public Policy 101.
There are moral goods that are in tension here. There are ideals of fairness, equality, efficiency, and autonomy that are in conflict. You can't simply wish that away.
It's obvious this topic angers you, but you just can't define away facts that annoy you.
You can't simply argue that whatever the tax rate currently is, is simply the fair price of the social contract you involuntarily signed on to at birth.
Taxation is different from voluntary market transactions. 99% of people believe that force-backed redistribution is a good thing. I'm one of them. I want moderately less confiscation than we currently have because I believe the efficiency gains will improve overall social welfare.
I also believe radically less taxation would be unwise because it would harm social cohesion. I believe redistribution has helped ameliorate racial grievances that would otherwise turn violent. It's extortionary, but that's life. I believe in paying the extortionist if there's no plausible way around the problem. Adapt and move on.
Fundamental moral principles conflict -- they alway have and always will. It's an imperfect world.
Posted by: david at Mar 6, 2008 5:36:26 PM
I'll go further and say flat-taxes are for pinkos. A flat-fee head-tax sounds better. Price discrimination is for rent-gathering monopolists.
Somalia did not collapse when its government did. It improved.
If you do not wish to pay your share of society's burdens, don't impose yours on us.
Tell me what I have to do, I was never given that option.
The options aren't limited to anarchy, minarchy or larger. I discuss a different alternative here.
Posted by: TGGP at Mar 6, 2008 5:40:10 PM
"Tell me what I have to do, I was never given that option."
There isn't one, practically speaking. That's sort of why you're obligated to pay them instead. (Sort of like how you can't opt out of eating, troublesome though it may be.)
If you're truly determined, there may be ways. I think the Somalia suggestion is valid enough, if somewhat rude. But I understand that while it probably represents the condition into which anarchy collapses, you probably wouldn't exactly be free from the imposition of force. I think you might possibly be able to find a patch of productive land somewhere in the world where the local government would leave you alone. They probably wouldn't even charge tariffs for trading across your border.
As an aside, I've sometimes wondered if simply abolishing property tax would solve this objection. Though, I suppose even living as a hermit, you're using police protection.
Posted by: jack lecou at Mar 6, 2008 6:03:13 PM
Is Tyler becoming more statist over time? His posts seem less libertarian than before.
Posted by: elbita at Mar 6, 2008 6:41:55 PM
Most Europeans I have met or read have absolutely no clue re: economics/taxation in the U.S.
They listen to Krugman, Chomsky, et al, and think that's all there is to it.
Posted by: elbita at Mar 6, 2008 6:45:16 PM
I was going to respond in a lengthy way, but happyjuggler pretty much captured all of it. I will just highlight, again, that the words "today, immediately" are the particularly misleading ones. And also...
Why is approval of the status-quo considered less extreme than a reversion to a just state, even if that other one is drastically different? There is something to be said for the wisdom of institutions that have a developed over time, but when this appreciation becomes a fetish and obscures moral thinking, what we have is just a degenerate view of reality.
Posted by: Student(extreme libertarian) at Mar 6, 2008 6:59:11 PM
Those seeking here to justify some level of taxation are beating around the bush. The conclusion you folks want to establish is about coercion and about the people in governments: that a certain level of coercion by people in governments, and not by people outside of governments, is acceptable. Clearly, to reach a conclusion about coercion and about people in governments and about people outside of governments you must be working from some premises about coercion and about people in governments and about people outside of governments. All the talk about unearned wealth, the value of fairness, community, and so on just won't get you there. Logic just doesn't work like that. No reasonable argument can reach a conclusion outside the scope of its assumptions, even if you wish it did.
So please clarify: What premises about coercion and about the people in governments and about people outside of governments are you working from?
Posted by: James at Mar 6, 2008 7:51:43 PM
It is absolutely the wrong path to go down to decide a rate which is reasonable. It must depend on what it is used for. For some things nearly any rate might arguably make sense (defense against invasion during dire emergency) while others would not be ok no matter how cheap. That must be the starting point.
Posted by: liberty at Mar 6, 2008 8:42:23 PM
"Would you abolish all taxation today, immediately, if it meant a rapid collapse into social chaos?" Yes. I believe in "thou shalt not steal"! (I also believe in I am my brother's keeper, but I have no Godly authority to steal from one brother to help another).
Posted by: ed42 at Mar 6, 2008 8:52:05 PM
In defense of Peter Singer, his strongest and most distinctive claims are about what each of us should do as individuals. In short, he claims that since each dollar given to helping the very poor with vaccines, famine relief, etc. is, at the margin, overwhelmingly more beneficial than typical spending for people in wealthy countries, then morally, we should give that dollar to Oxfam rather than Starbucks (and the dollar before that, and that ...). This is basically independent of whether the government should be able to raise taxes.
He does not, as far as I can see, argue for an extraordinarily high level of general taxation. Even at the level of the individual he says that he would not go out of his way to criticize anyone giving away 10% of their income to Oxfam, etc. The strict cosmopolitanism and consequentialism of his outlook are more distinctive than the redistribution.
Posted by: jonm at Mar 6, 2008 10:50:10 PM
"Finnsense: What you have described here is extortion."
This evades the issue and reveals that you believe a market distribution of income to be just and fair. The issue is what is distributive justice (I don't believe there is an answer to this question). You're assuming an answer to that.
Charles,
"Finnsense, why does a safety net have to be government supplied?"
It doesn't, but to date the only societies that have managed to safeguard equality of opportunity, have been societies in which government does supply it. If it's discretionary people end up in deep poverty as do their children etc. I would be in favour of a trial of allowing people to opt in to a system of social insurance with other people whose values they share but who must represent the income demographic of the country as a whole. It would in interesting to see if it worked.
Posted by: Finnsense at Mar 7, 2008 1:47:49 AM
John Dewey,
You don't change a culture overnight. The US only managed to stop segregating high schools in some parts fifty years ago and we all know the discimination didn't end there. Furthermore, the safety net in the US is not enough to give genuine equality of opportunity to whites or blacks. It might offend your views on liberty but when poor uneducated people are ghettoised, sent to the same schools, raised in dangerous neighbourhoods etc, it's not surprising if they have trouble pulling themselves up by their bootstraps.
Go to Harvard or Oxford and ask students what their background is, then come to Helsinki University and ask the same question. Then you'll see social mobility and then you'll see equality of opportunity.
Posted by: Finnsense at Mar 7, 2008 1:58:56 AM
They don't have a lot of taxation in third world / developing countries. The very rich in these countries have really got it good; no-one thieving their money through taxation. Utopia! Why don't all those people complaining about taxation as theft take their cash and ship off to Bangladesh, Pakistan, the Darfur or somewhere similar. Of course there is the problem that those low/no-tax coutries often have poor infrastuctures, and social order can be a bit light on - but you can keep to the safe areas, build fortresses to keep the barbarians out - small price surely to keep the taxman's hands out of your pockets.
Posted by: milsy at Mar 7, 2008 7:11:41 AM
finnsense: "Then you'll see social mobility and then you'll see equality of opportunity"
Equality of opportunity in the U.S. exceeds that of nearly every other nation. Thousands of Mexicans, Vietnamese, Filipinos, African-Americans, Chinese, Cubans, and members of just about every other ethnic group have become wealthy after taking advantage of the economic opportunities in my nation. It is our immense economic engine that allows entrepreneurs and talented workers to live their dreams. Those opportunities are open to all.
Please understand that I am referring to equality of opportunity - not equality of results. The concept of equality of results sickens me.
Your insinuation that our universities do not provide opportunities for students from low income families is just wrong. You apparently have no idea how much our admissions officers bend the rules to favor so-called "disadvantaged" students. Have you graduated from one of our Ivy League universities? I have, and I do know something about the backgrounds of my classmates.
Posted by: John Dewey at Mar 7, 2008 7:45:29 AM
"Equality of opportunity in the U.S. exceeds that of nearly every other nation. "
It is widely understood that the best sign of equality of opportunity is social mobility. No, the US does not have great social mobility.
"Your insinuation that our universities do not provide opportunities for students from low income families is just wrong."
It's fine if you're outstanding and some schools have better aid than others. If you're merely good you have have less chance than someone whose parents will pay the fees. Your chances of doing well also improve with good schools and private tuition, which are available if you can pay to live in good areas or pay for independent schools.
I repeat, if you doubt what I say, just come to one of my classes and check it out.
"Have you graduated from one of our Ivy League universities?"
I have plenty of experience of American and British elite education. I also coach Finnish IB students to get into elite US and UK universities and when those that get in come back, they reaffirm what I myself have experienced. The fact you even question what I say shows your ignorance of systems other than your own.
Posted by: Finnsense at Mar 7, 2008 8:07:18 AM
"It's fine if you're outstanding and some schools have better aid than others. If you're merely good you have have less chance than someone whose parents will pay the fees. Your chances of doing well also improve with good schools and private tuition, which are available if you can pay to live in good areas or pay for independent schools."
If you think that Harvard and Yale are the only way to succeed in the US then yes it might be tough to suceed if you are only merely good.
But if you view a College education as the gateway to prosperity there is no reason why anyone who has above average grades cannot go to college and if you are poor or a minority go to a better college than your grades would indicate for a free or very reduced price.
My cousin just graduated from a low income rural highschool with middling grades. Both of her parents are unemployed and live off the state and federal government. She is going to a mid-tier state university for free. Actually she is being paid to go she got more in aid than her expenses were.
The main thing holding back minorities and the poor in the US is not lack of finacial resources. If you work even reasonably hard and stay out of trouble and are poor. Universities will be lining up to let you go to school for free.
Posted by: eccdogg at Mar 7, 2008 9:20:28 AM
finnsense: "It is widely understood that the best sign of equality of opportunity is social mobility. "
That is not widely understood by conservative economists in the U.S. I see no reason to equate results with opportunity. This English (?) idiom is appropriate:
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink."
finnsense: "It's fine if you're outstanding and some schools have better aid than others."
Assistance for higher education - technical and vocational schools as well as universities - is available to every low income person in the U.S. The taxes I pay have paid for such assistance for over 30 years.
finnsense: "The fact you even question what I say shows your ignorance of systems other than your own."
What an arrogant remark! I did not question your system or any other European system. I generally do not criticize the governments and public institutions of other nations - except where they impact my nation's well-being. I do not question your nation's education system or that of any other European country. But I will continue to defend the charge that the U.S. higher education system does not provide sufficient opportunities for minorities - which is what you suggested.
Posted by: John Dewey at Mar 7, 2008 9:59:27 AM
finnsense: "Was there some reason you missed out the Quebecois?"
Yes. I assumed you were referring to ethnic populations which might be a burden on the welfare state when you wrote:
"Canada is every bit as multicultural as the US yet they have a decent safety net. Sweden also has a very large refugee population which doesn't dent their welfare state"
My reply was meant to show that the poor ethnic groups in the U.S. have been much larger than such groups in Canada. I do not believe the Quebecois are either low skilled or poor. The immigrants to the U.S. from Mexico, Central America, and southeast Asia definitely have been. The U.S. African-Americans - despite five decades of very costly assistance - have remained less-skilled than any other ethnic group that settled here.
Posted by: John Dewey at Mar 7, 2008 10:22:36 AM
"If you think that Harvard and Yale are the only way to succeed in the US then yes it might be tough to suceed if you are only merely good."
That wasn't the point.
John Dewey,
Look, you might think that the correlation between parental wealth and attendance at elite universities is not the result of inequality of opportunity but the empirical evidence simply does not bear this out. In Finland people from a very wide range of backgrounds end up at Helsinki University (the country's best university). Are you suggesting that there is some reverse discrimination going on? Or that people from poorer backgrounds in Finland are somehow smarter than people from poorer backgrounds in the US?
When the UK introduced tuition fees (for which everyone is entitled to a government loan) there was a noticeable drop in the number of applicants from poorer backgrounds. Why? Because they didn't want to get into debt. Students from wealthier backgrounds don't need the loans or know their parents will pay them off.
I suspect you might argue that the poor can go to university if they want and it's trivially true. Were they not human beings behaving in predictably human ways, they could go to university. This in the same way that a kid growing up in the projects to criminal parents and surrounded by criminals, could become a doctor. It happens, but not very often. The barriers psychological, cultural and educational are far higher to getting into med chool for the kid from the projects. That's not equality of opportunity.
Posted by: Finnsense at Mar 7, 2008 10:53:39 AM
"The barriers psychological, cultural and educational are far higher to getting into med chool for the kid from the projects. That's not equality of opportunity."
But most of those barriers have nothing to do with redistribution of income. They have to do with the values and aspirations of the family/local culture.
"Are you suggesting that there is some reverse discrimination going on? Or that people from poorer backgrounds in Finland are somehow smarter than people from poorer backgrounds in the US?"
I think people from poorer backgrounds in Finland likely have better family support and values than poor people in the US. Maybe I am wrong since I only know a few Finns personally. I do know that intelligence, work ethic, and following the rules are much more indicative of upward mobility in the US than income.
Numerous people in my family grew up poor, some really poor. They almost all were able to advance themselves or the next generation of their family. They all shared a strong work ethic, a propensity to follow the rules, and valued knowledge/education.
My wife grew up poor (qualified for free lunch at school but did not take it). She went on to Engineering school and gave the graduation address. She now has a masters degree. Her sister is finishing her degree and her brother is an auto mechanic who makes more than most college grads. They didn't have money, but they did have a loving mother and a strong work ethic. I don't think the government can give that to anyone no matter how much free healthcare they give them.
Posted by: eccdogg at Mar 7, 2008 11:47:06 AM
finnsense: "The barriers psychological, cultural and educational are far higher to getting into med chool for the kid from the projects."
I agree that environment and culture greatly influence - but do not determine - economic success. But genetics may play a role as well.
finnsense: "Or that people from poorer backgrounds in Finland are somehow smarter than people from poorer backgrounds in the US?"
I don't know anything about the poor in Finland. But I do know that just about every ethnic group that arrived in the U.S. in the past 150 years was poor. And every one of those groups - Irish, Jews, Chinese, Italians, Poles, Cajuns, and many more - was able to escape the grip of poverty without huge transfer payments. Vietnamese refugees are doing so today.
So how are U.S. African-Americans different? Until the 1960's they were not. They were building a middle class that would have taken advantage of the same environment of opportunity that the Irish, Jews, Chinese, etc. had used.
And then two things changed.
1. birth control - allowed middle class black families to stop reproducing themselves, so that the portion of blacks born into poverty increased with each generation rather than decline as it had done for other ethnic groups;
2. culture of dependency - transfer payments, subsidized housing, food stamps, and so on reduced the incentive for impoverished families to become more productive, to acquire more skills.
Where you and I likely disagree is on how much economic transfers can benefit impoverished groups. It just hasn't worked in the U.S. In fact, such welfare seems to have been counter-productive.
Posted by: John Dewey at Mar 7, 2008 11:50:27 AM
eccdogg: "They didn't have money, but they did have a loving mother and a strong work ethic. I don't think the government can give that to anyone no matter how much free healthcare they give them."
I completely agree.
Posted by: John Dewey at Mar 7, 2008 12:04:22 PM
@ John,
That story could also be told, that up until 1890, there was not: poor was poor, and in terms of human capital, it mattered little whether your parents had been southern slaves or eastern European peasants. But then, in the period 1890-1920, anti-black pogroms in many American towns and cities destroyed what many families had built in the generation since emancipation, and encouraged many other families to sell what they had on disadvantageous terms, in order to move into urban centers where at the very least they had safety in numbers.
Posted by: Cyrus at Mar 7, 2008 1:06:32 PM
eccdogg and John Dewey,
There can never be a true level playing field because people will have different parents. However, beyond that you can do well by making access to education the same for all. That entails not having poor areas full of poor people with deprived schools. These schools are not attractive for teachers and the levels of delinquency and bad behaviour, which strongly affect children's learning and motivation, are higher. This is not to mention the 10% of Americans who are privately educated with better paid teachers, better facilities and smaller class sizes.
Additionally, you can break down the barriers to higher education by making the incentives for each child to attend the same. That means making the costs the same. If the costs are not the same it will distort the incentives and that is what you see.
Now, how you get here is tough. We do better than anyone else here in Finland and we: Put public housing up in otherwise affluent areas. Schools have very similar results all through Finland because the makeup of the student body covers the full range of incomes; Higher education is totally free to Masters degree level and you get living support too. Loans are available but they total about $5,000 by the end of your studies if you take them all.
It is a huge curtailment of autonomy to say you can't send your kids to a school of your choosing if you have the money - but that is the real cost of equality of opportunity. You have to make your choice. I understand if you choose your liberty but you cannot then claim that everyone has an equal chance because it just isn't true.
Posted by: Finnsense at Mar 7, 2008 1:57:23 PM
Finnsense I think you are correct in some of your points, but I think you viewing the US system from afar and think it is different than it actually is.
Both of my parents are public school teachers and I went to public school and public college and grad school so I know from what my experience was/is at least in North Carolina.
My highschool was 25% black 10% hispanic 5% asian. It covered all income groups one of my classmated dad was an industrist and drove a Ferrari and one the guys I played football with was kicked out of his home by his mother because her boyfriend moved in and had to live at a hotel at his own expense (he is actually doing ok now, he is a truck driver). We had kids from my graduating class go to MIT we had others go to prison.
Some of this was by design. Kids were bused in (not very far) to ensure diversity. Now where I live in addition to magnet schools which put the most resources and best teachers in the worst neighborhoods my city draws school boarders to insure income diversity. A very small percentage of people went to
Higher education for me was not free but very cheap 3k per semester (books, room, board, tuition and some spening money) this was in the 90's. All this is free for my cousin who is poor. I also went to grad school with a teaching assistanceship my wife with a research assistanceship. So grad school was quasi free.
So in North Carolina the system is not that different than in Finland. Yet if you look at the differences between the two in education and income inequality there is a huge difference.
I cannot speak to Finland but the main thing holding back my classmates was none of the things you mention, but a combination of a very inadequate family situation, a lack of dicipline and the ability to act right, a lack of desire to do anything with your life, very little value placed on an education, a bad work ethic and in some cases mental problems and low intelligence.
The comparision of Finland to the United States is just silly. Finland is smaller than North Carolina in population and has no where near the diversity in races and social groups that the US or even North Carolina has.
So maybe if we adopted the Finnish model we could imporve our income inequality. But I think we would do as well by just addopting Finns.
Posted by: eccdogg at Mar 7, 2008 2:46:55 PM
"A very small percentage of people went to"
should have finished with "private school"
A very small percentage of people went to private school
Posted by: eccdogg at Mar 7, 2008 2:49:50 PM
eccdogg: "So maybe if we adopted the Finnish model we could imporve our income inequality."
Well, that assumes that reducing the variance in incomes is somehow an improvement. I see no reason to believe that it would be. That's especially true if to do so meant large transfers from our most productive households to our least productive households.
It's important to note - which our European "advisors" may not realize - that there is almost no poverty in the U.S. Almost everyone of every ethnic group has food on the table, has electricity and heat, has some form of transportation. Almost every home has a television and a telephone. Everyone except those living in the very remote towns has access to some form of health care. We attempt to educate every child, though some refuse to take advantage of that opportunity.
The U.S. is truly a land of opportunity - which is why so many from all over the world try so hard to get here.
Posted by: John Dewey at Mar 7, 2008 3:12:14 PM
finnsense - Private schools in the US do tend to have smaller classes, but the teachers are not paid better. If you can provide comprehensive data on that, as opposed to one example from a New England prep school, please do so. Most Christian schools in the US pay poorly compared to public schools. Do you know what the average salary is for public school teachers in Chicago?
We spend a ton on K-12 education. Everywhere, not just the suburbs. Look at per-pupil spending in the big cities - it's not low. Look at per-pupil spending in DC, and look at how completely abysmal that district is. Many, many potentially great teachers go to our urban school districts and leave after a year or two because they can't take it.
Comparing individual Scandinavian countries to the US is not very helpful. More relevant would be to compare Finland to Minnesota, New Hampshire, Vermont, or Wisconsin minus Milwaukee.
And actually, if you're a poor minority who actually tries in school, every door is open to you from high school through tenured professor, and it will all be free. Find me a young, poor, black student who studies hard and stays out of trouble, and you'll have found someone who will get a full scholarship anywhere and will get hired before they graduate.
The big elephant in the room of American culture, that people get in trouble for saying out loud, is that inner-city black culture is not conducive to success. It is very very easy to avoid poverty in America: finish high school, don't have kids until you get married, stay married. Obviously avoiding substance abuse is helpful too. Tell me the rate of poverty for people who follow those simple guidelines. It's very close to zero.
Posted by: elbita at Mar 7, 2008 4:26:30 PM
Nozick's argument is a classic case of the composition fallacy. He makes the assumption that a just outcome follows from voluntary transfers. As already pointed out, he also makes the critical assumption that adding a quarter to a separate box to pay off Wilt Chamberlain is more or less representative of transfers in a modern society.
Posted by: Cain at Mar 7, 2008 4:41:07 PM
"Go to Harvard or Oxford and ask students what their background is, then come to Helsinki University and ask the same question. Then you'll see social mobility and then you'll see equality of opportunity."
Both of those universities recruit the elite of the WORLD.
Looking at the list of international rankings it looks like Helsinki U. Is more similar to top 20 US Public Universities like Cal, Nichigan, UNC and UVA. Go to those universities and ask about backgrounds. I think you will get a different story
http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/results/2007/overall_rankings/top_400_universities/
Posted by: eccdogg at Mar 7, 2008 5:35:25 PM
Michigan
Posted by: eccdogg at Mar 7, 2008 5:37:13 PM
John Dewey,
After many sentences you finally showed your hand and slipped in the comment "genetics" as a cause of the "black problem" in the otherwise stellar record of upward mobility of ethnic groups in the U.S. Your grasp of statistics correctly shows enormous transfer payments over the last 40 years, and you come to a fairly sound conclusion that the black underclass is niether burdened by lack of opportunity or lack of rescource support to the extent many europeans and left leaning americans would argue. As others too have hinted at, their is clearly an culutural dysfunction within the black community that is causal to the low mobility rates for that ethnic group.
The 1000 lb gorilla in the room is the inescapable historical context for their presense in America. 200 years of slavery, numerous pogroms, cannot be simply unwound in 50 years of social support or equal opportunity. you may correctly point out that money is not the core problem, and that welfare support is not effective, but when you slide 'genetics" into your commentary whilst complaining of the "white man's burden" you render much of the argumentation to be suspect, as built upon racist underpinnings. Much of the "solution's" to the "black problem" maybe useless or misguided, but that does not excuse us to insinuate inferiority for their predicament.
As an African immigrant to the U.S. who has been immersed in, and witness of, black culture first hand, for the better part of 20 years, my observation of the extent to which the depth of fear, perceived oppression, and suscpicion of both government and the larger culture, continues to exasparate me. But, in lieu of understanding their history, for which the PBS series Africans in America is an excellent rescource, it strikes me that much of what we witness in black culture is the vestiges of psychological adaptations for survival in America for the preceding 400 years.
Rather than resorting to "genetics" John, to keep your world view intact, have better faith in your country and it's systems based approach, to produce another remarkable succcess story out of the ultimate in disenfranchised humanity, but working over the longer time frame needed for the signaling required for cultural transformation.
Posted by: nyongesa at Mar 7, 2008 6:20:59 PM
nyongesa - good post.
culture > genetics
If you took any ethnic group in America and applied the same attitudes toward studying and the same rate of babies born to uneducated/unwed mothers, you would get more poverty. It's a completely predictable result.
By the way, it's always useful to throw out a few more pieces of data, since we are so obsessed with white and black in America. What about Asians and whites in America, or minorities in other countries who outperform the majority? Different cultural values = different results = equality of anything is impossible without tremendous coercion.
Posted by: elbita at Mar 7, 2008 7:56:44 PM
The correct level of taxation is zero, just as the correct amount of usage that a healthy man should make of a crutch is zero. If, however, that healthy man has been using a crutch for a while, he has come to depend upon it, and it would be an act of cruelty to take it away from him. He must be weaned from his use of the crutch slowly.
So it is with taxation.
Posted by: Russell Nelson at Mar 7, 2008 11:35:04 PM
Eccdogg,
"[Helsinki University] is more similar to top 20 US Public Universities"
It's worse pedagogically in my opinion (research is okay) BUT the best Finns go there. That's why it's a relevant marker.
"Comparing individual Scandinavian countries to the US is not very helpful."
I wasn't doing that exactly. What I was trying to tease out are the conditions for true equality of opportunity to exist - as opposed to formal equality of opportunity. If (a) gets a better education than (b) or has easier access to education via both formal and informal incentives, the playing field is not level.
Posted by: Finnsense at Mar 8, 2008 2:58:23 AM
Just as an aside, it would be interesting to compare the social mobility in Finland with that in Maine or New Hampshire. I can't find the data.
Posted by: Finnsense at Mar 8, 2008 3:03:07 AM
First, Finnsense let me say that I have enjoyed this conversation. I have been thinking about the difference between Finnish and American schools since I read and article on Finland and its schools in the Wall St Journal about a week and a half ago. Maybe we have hijacked the thread, but it has been a good conversation.
We are often told how well other countries do and that we should adopt this or that model (for instance the article I read). And I wonder if we are not missing the big picture that some sub groups white and black in the US have problems that are not comperable to those same economic sub groups in other countries
