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Timing
Let's say a meeting, originally scheduled for Wednesday, has been moved forward two days. What is the new day of the meeting?
That's a question from Mark Frauenfelder at Boing Boing. The answer says a lot about how you implicitly think about time.
According to this research, a bit sketchy it seems to me, Friday people tend to be angrier. FYI, I'm a Monday person (it took me some time to see the question could have another answer!).
Posted by Alex Tabarrok on August 12, 2009 at 02:21 PM in Science | Permalink
Comments
I'm pretty certain that Monday would be the common use of the language, so this seems like an odd claim. It's not an interpretation after you've been told what something means.
Posted by: Careless at Aug 12, 2009 2:29:09 PM
If you said "pushed back," it would clearly mean Friday, so "moved forward" should mean Monday. That's if language were logical.
Posted by: fusion at Aug 12, 2009 2:30:41 PM
I had to read every single comment at BoingBoing before I could understand how anyone could say "Monday."
Posted by: Sarah S at Aug 12, 2009 2:31:09 PM
I'm angry, as I don't understand how the answer could be Monday...
Posted by: Damien at Aug 12, 2009 2:31:27 PM
Damien--
Apparently, they mean the Monday before the Wednesday upon which the meeting was originally scheduled. Not the Monday following the Friday upon which you and I think the meeting is now scheduled.
The question, in other words, is about what it means to move something "forward" in time.
I read it as being a question about how one counts "two days later."
Posted by: Sarah S at Aug 12, 2009 2:34:45 PM
Count me among those who see moving something forward on a schedule as bringing it closer to now.
Posted by: Joshua at Aug 12, 2009 2:37:14 PM
fusion was on the right track here. If you have a job where you have meetings... meeting are "pushed back" constantly, meaning at a later date/time. Very rarely is a scheduled meeting re-scheduled to be earlier, but if one ever was then yes I'd consider this moving the meeting "forward". Like Alex I had trouble envisioning any answer but Monday.
Posted by: jeff at Aug 12, 2009 2:40:05 PM
I should've written "wink-wink" next to "I'm angry" ;)
It also took me time to see how it could have another answer, though. But once you realize it, you wonder why you didn't think about it all along since it seems quite logical.
Posted by: Damien at Aug 12, 2009 2:40:56 PM
I am in the Friday camp, and could not originally understand how Monday could be correct.
Posted by: PaulNoonan at Aug 12, 2009 2:43:03 PM
My initial reaction was Friday.
Thinking about it for a while, I can certainly see the sense in fusion's assessment: If you "push back" a meeting, it will occur later, so moving it forward should make it earlier. So in that context, "forward" would imply Monday. Still, there's a separate sense that Sarah S. touches on: if you go "back in time", you're going to the past, so going forward in time goes toward the future--consistent with the idea that time is something you move through.
Posted by: D at Aug 12, 2009 2:44:23 PM
How does this correlate to life expectancy?
Posted by: Andrew at Aug 12, 2009 2:44:47 PM
I immediately thought Friday and could not imagine Monday to be the right answer until I read the comments.
On the other other hand, if it were phrased "pushed back" I would still think it would be Friday, because since when the heck have you had meeting that hasn't started late?
Posted by: Anonymous at Aug 12, 2009 2:51:14 PM
What happens if the meeting also changes location crossing the date line?
Posted by: Time Tripper at Aug 12, 2009 2:51:37 PM
Friday.
Posted by: Christopher Monnier at Aug 12, 2009 3:02:09 PM
I intuitively thought Monday.
Now the corresponding Monday image:
I sit at the top of an upward moving escalator, which is time. The meeting is on the fifth step and slowly getting closer to me. Moving it forward moves it up to the seventh step, closer still.
The Friday image?
Perhaps time is a hallway...you walk towards the meeting, anthropomorphised, it has its back to you. Moving it forward moves it away from you.
Posted by: tg at Aug 12, 2009 3:04:33 PM
Most Americans would think the answer is Friday. It's a common cultural metaphor. I believe Israelis are more likely to use the opposite metaphor.
Also, if you asked people the same question in an airport terminal their answer would likely differ on whether they're arriving or departing.
That work was done by Lera Boroditsky:
http://www-psych.stanford.edu/~lera/papers/
Posted by: talboito at Aug 12, 2009 3:11:50 PM
Obviously Monday, unless it's a bimonthly meeting, in which case who knows.
Posted by: ZBicyclist at Aug 12, 2009 3:16:43 PM
I've always had issue with "former and latter", because it seems ambiguous to me whether we're are referring to time since reading or time during reading. But i think i'm the only person struggling with this because i didn't grow up in the US.
as far as time perception and anger. it's correlation not causation. people that feel like they control their destiny are more likely to attribute success OR failure to themselves. yet another example of correlation study getting something dangerously wrong.
Posted by: Alex Golubev at Aug 12, 2009 3:18:52 PM
I'm confused by these responses. Am I the only one who has heard "move the ___ up/forward" hundreds or thousands of times in his life, always meaning the same thing?
Posted by: Careless at Aug 12, 2009 3:23:00 PM
I'm so lost I think I'll just skip the meeting.
Posted by: anon at Aug 12, 2009 3:23:16 PM
On only reading the set-up sentence, I answered, "Could you please clarify? I think it's Monday but I can see how someone might think it was Friday and I don't know what type you are." So I can't see how someone can't see both. "We hold [our perspective] to be self-evident" and all that.
Posted by: D. Watson at Aug 12, 2009 3:35:29 PM
"Moved up" is the antonym of "pushed back." "Moved forward" references its position on the schedule: slid to the right.
Posted by: jim at Aug 12, 2009 3:37:24 PM
I guess I am somewhat unusual in my reaction was fairly ambivalent-- it was something like, "Friday I guess...oh wait maybe they mean Monday. Not really sure." The emotional attachment to one or the other seems sort of odd, to me.
Posted by: vm at Aug 12, 2009 3:41:09 PM
I initially thought Friday, but then immediately realized that Monday was also a possibility (since I've encountered that usage before).
But both of them make sense:
"pushed back" is unambiguous for something happening later. So logically "move forward" should mean happening earlier. Also, things that are forward happen first, so Monday should be correct.
"Extending" something means to make it happen later (as in a deadline). So logically "move forward" should mean the same thing as "extend". On a calendar, Friday is in "front of" (comes after) Wednesday. So moving forward could mean moving the meeting to the later day.
Posted by: Andy at Aug 12, 2009 3:42:16 PM
it took me some time to see the question could have another answer!
Really? Before I even finished the sentence I was thinking, "Well, what does he mean by 'forward'?".
Posted by: u. saldin at Aug 12, 2009 3:43:42 PM
Like some others above, I am Friday camp, and at first assumed the Monday answer referred to the next Monday.
Maybe Friday types are more angry because they're constantly missing meetings.
Posted by: Mike at Aug 12, 2009 3:47:20 PM
Well, this just goes to show you should never use the term "move forward" when rescheduling a meeting :-)
Perhaps both the differing interpretations and the differences in anger can be explained by Bayesian priors. People who are always getting meetings delayed naturally assume that "move forward" means a delay because that's the most likely event in their experience. Moreover, meeting delays are pretty irritating so this experience also makes them angrier.
Posted by: Kevin Dick at Aug 12, 2009 3:52:03 PM
Steven Pinker describes this exact language usage in his latest book, "The Stuff of Thought: Language as a Window into Human Nature"
Posted by: jason at Aug 12, 2009 3:53:12 PM
This phrasing has stumped me in the past, actually... when I think of "time" I think of a calendar, and as an English speaker I read left to right... so when I hear someone talk about "moving a date forward" I imagine it traveling from left to right on the calendar. Likewise, moving a meeting "back" would be a right-to-left move. The usual convention is of course the opposite.
Computer programmers, back in the assembly language days, used to have a similar conflict when talking about moving something "up" in memory. Moving "up" means moving to a higher address... which, in most printed memory maps, means moving it toward the *bottom* of the page. I've seen memory maps with the highest address (0xFFFFFF, say) at the top of the page, just to clarify what "up" means.
Posted by: Rich at Aug 12, 2009 3:54:01 PM
What jim said.
Posted by: hkc at Aug 12, 2009 3:54:31 PM
Really, I've never heard someone say that the meeting has been "moved forward." Its either been "moved up" or "pushed back".
Posted by: hkc at Aug 12, 2009 3:57:44 PM
By answering, it didn't just show how I think about time, I have also solved all outstanding physics problems about time.
Posted by: JP at Aug 12, 2009 4:00:22 PM
Sid: Well I'm going down to visit my sister in Virginia next Wednesday, for a week, so I can't park it.
Jerry: This Wednesday?
Sid: No, next Wednesday, week after this Wednesday.
Jerry: But the Wednesday two days from now is the next Wednesday.
Sid: If I meant this Wednesday, I would have said this Wednesday. It's the week after this Wednesday.
Posted by: James B. at Aug 12, 2009 4:01:52 PM
"Moved up" is the antonym of "pushed back." "Moved forward" references its position on the schedule: slid to the right.
So for you, "move forward" and "move back" have the same meaning?
Posted by: Careless at Aug 12, 2009 4:06:25 PM
What is the answer if the meeting has been moved forward 2 days?
What is the answer if the meeting has been moved forward 1 day?
What is the answer if the meeting has been moved forward 0 day?
I expect people who originally thought "Moday" answer me, lol.
Posted by: Caxim at Aug 12, 2009 4:08:03 PM
Is this an English vs American comprehension test? In the UK to move forward two days has to be Friday, the only way for it to be Monday would be for the meeting to be moved back two days.
Posted by: clarke at Aug 12, 2009 4:08:30 PM
Really, I've never heard someone say that the meeting has been "moved forward." Its either been "moved up" or "pushed back".
I've been wondering about that, if my mind just associated "moved up" and "pushed back" and rejected "moved forward" as having the same meaning as "moved back".
"moved the launch forward" is about 1/10 as common on google as "moved up the launch" and replace "launch" with "meeting" it's about 1% as common. Also interesting to see that people virtually always put "forward" at the end of the sentence while "up" is in the middle". Despite the fact that they're both being used as adverbs, people have a strong tendency to treat the "up" as a preposition, I guess.
Posted by: Careless at Aug 12, 2009 4:13:05 PM
Is this an English vs American comprehension test? In the UK to move forward two days has to be Friday, the only way for it to be Monday would be for the meeting to be moved back two days.
There would be much stronger agreement on what "move forward two days" means without it affecting a meeting.
Posted by: Careless at Aug 12, 2009 4:16:00 PM
Is the meeting bi-weekly or semi-weekly?
Posted by: Andrew at Aug 12, 2009 4:24:30 PM
Careless is on to something there. If I said, "I moved forward two days", I would mean I went further into the future, no questions asked. But if a meeting in the future is moved forward, I would never assume it meant anything other than "closer to me in time", ie Wednesday becomes Monday.
Posted by: Sol at Aug 12, 2009 4:25:26 PM
maybe it was already said somewhere, but I went to Friday, given that today is Wednesday. When else could it be?
Posted by: rb at Aug 12, 2009 4:39:15 PM
I see “moved forward” as moving it to Monday because an upcoming event is something that is facing me as we draw closer together; the Newtonian-relativity issue of whether I move through time or time moves past me is irrelevant to this.
Posted by: Max Kaehn at Aug 12, 2009 4:41:47 PM
"moved up"
Friday people are angrier because
a) we don't like meetings on Friday
and
b) we missed the Monday meeting
and
c) our boss has communication problems.
Posted by: 8 at Aug 12, 2009 4:44:16 PM
The answer is Friday. And it really pisses me off!
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Posted by: p at Aug 12, 2009 4:55:56 PM
Why not use the logical word " prepone" instead of moving forward ?
http://www.languagehat.com/archives/000645.php
Posted by: Rama at Aug 12, 2009 5:14:28 PM
Now I have a tool to give myself plausible deniability for messing up a meeting/deadline.
Posted by: Floccina at Aug 12, 2009 5:21:00 PM
thanks. i've moved my angry outburst, originally scheduled for tomorrow, forward by two days.
Posted by: babar at Aug 12, 2009 5:46:37 PM
The basic misunderstanding is a conflation of the object of the movement: is the meeting moving, or is the person moving through time? Going "back in time" is moving yourself. Moving a meeting back is moving it into the future. Going forward in time is moving into the future, and moving a meeting forward is bringing it closer to the present, or backwards in time.
I question the premise of this study.
Posted by: dan k at Aug 12, 2009 5:55:26 PM
