« Assorted links | Main | Very good sentences about music »
The economics of the secret Chinese menu
Jason Kuznicki asks why do they do it? Why don't they make the "secret menu" common knowledge? He gives some answers, including:
Americans have some very set though inaccurate ideas about what “Chinese food” really is. They will generally balk at anything else. More people will break this way, and avoid the restaurants, than will break my way, and go to them more often, if they are offered something new and different.
I would add that perhaps many Chinese restaurants do not want too many non-Chinese customers. Especially for immigrants, restaurant life is often about ambience, social contacts, and feeling you have a space to call your own. A restaurant cannot be all things to all people and the #1 best way of judging a restaurant is to look at its customers. The "beef with broccoli" menu will attract a certain kind of American customer, but without breaking down the sense of segregation and the basic Chineseness of the place.
That said, there is also the fear that the American customers will order from the secret menu and then not like the chicken feet, etc. and give a bad report to their friends.
Thai restaurants don't have secret menus per se, but often you can talk a so-so restaurant into, for your sake, becoming a very good restaurant with real Thai food.
Posted by Tyler Cowen on August 13, 2009 at 02:16 PM in Food and Drink | Permalink
Comments
There is also price discrimination. Prices are often cheaper on the Chinese menu, as Chinese patrons are often more price conscious. This is partly reflected in the Chinese language options for tables of 4, 6, or 8. In Chinatown one will often see Western couples dining at small tables, while the Chinese often occupy large tables with family or friends. The Chinese pay a lower price per meal. I don't recall seeing any English prices for multiple entree options.
Posted by: Scott Sumner at Aug 13, 2009 2:26:38 PM
It may have something to do with the American customer wanting to feel "international". The average American, walking into a Chinese restaurant, eating "Chinese" food, and enjoying it, is then able to think to himself: "Hey, aren't I multi-cultural, man-of-the-world. Here I am, eating Chinese food, in an authentic Chinese restaurant. Aren't I sophisticated!"
If you let people in on the secret, at the very least you burst that bubble. If you include the "real" items on a separate section of the menu in English, you might even scare them away.
Posted by: Alex at Aug 13, 2009 2:36:43 PM
Indian food in Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand, etc is usually not the same as Indian food in India. But it seems more likely that Indian food is being adapted to local tastes and ingredients than that Malaysians, Singaporeans, and Thais have "some very set though inaccurate ideas about what Indian food really is" (especially since M'sia and S'pore have large Indian populations).
This point generalizes to a lot of cuisines I've tried in various countries, but Indian food made for a good example.
Posted by: C at Aug 13, 2009 2:48:58 PM
this doesn't explain the in n out secret menu though.
Posted by: Hillel Aron at Aug 13, 2009 3:01:06 PM
We once went to a Chinese restaurant with some Chinese friends, and they ordered. They got into a big discussion with the waiter in Chinese, which we don't speak. There would be some talk, then they'd all turn and look at us, then more talk, then further examination.
Of course, the waiter was telling them that the gringos didn't like what they were ordering, and they were saying it would be ok, bring it anyway.
I think the restaurant had a very clear idea of what they thought would make the market happy and didn't want to deviate from it.
Posted by: peterg at Aug 13, 2009 3:03:48 PM
Good point Hillel. McDonald's also has at least one off-menu offering: the McGangBang. Try ordering it sometime!
Posted by: gary at Aug 13, 2009 3:05:20 PM
We've got a pretty heavy Asian population around here and I've found if you frequent the restaurants often enough to be recognized as a regular, you can become familiar enough to the owners that you don't even need to ask for a menu. In most of the Asian restaurants I know, I'll just tell them about how much I'm looking to spend and they'll whip up more traditional dishes that are generally not found on the English menus.
I don't know if this is the same as ordering off the secret menu or not, but it goes along with the thoughts from Kuznicki that if chefs have a better idea of where your tastes lie, they'll work to accommodate those tastes.
Posted by: Brian at Aug 13, 2009 3:19:25 PM
My local Chinese restaurant prints their Chinese menu in English. On several occasions, I've ordered something from the Chinese menu only to have them try to convince me I don't actually want what I've ordered. Hah.
Posted by: Sean P. at Aug 13, 2009 3:21:12 PM
I think it’s b/c there are so many variations of beef and broccoli that they don’t know how to explain it on the menu. Plus restaurants shouldn’t make a menu that is too long. That’s what I hate about Mexican restaurant menus. But at the Chinese restaurant you can always just order whatever you want without looking at a menu.
Furthermore, I also agree with the “Stuff White People Like” argument that a white person likes to be the only white person at an ethnic restaurant and since Chinese restaurants are no longer exclusive, the Chinese menu is his way of signalling to other white people in the restaurant that he is indeed more exclusive so Chinese restaurants cater to this (this explains In N Out as well).
Posted by: Lawrence M at Aug 13, 2009 3:37:38 PM
So what happens when people order something and don't like it? They are less likely to come back.
Any good restaurant will try to maximize the chance that the patrons will have a good experience.
For their best customers, restaurants will do something special -- a secret menu, an occasional free appetizer, etc.
It doesn't have to fit economic theory. It's basic marketing / customer service.
Posted by: Zbicyclist at Aug 13, 2009 3:41:35 PM
I have a friend, a white woman who speaks Mandarin like a native. On more than one occasion when she ordered from the Chinese menu, in Mandarin, we were met with outright hostility. If we persisted in our desire to eat at the place, we received the most rude service and inferior food. The explanation, I think, likes in the Chinese national self-concept. They think of China as the Middle Kingdom, still, and of non-Chinese people as distinctly inferior and not deserving.
Posted by: Anonymous at Aug 13, 2009 4:04:49 PM
-"Hey, aren't I multi-cultural, man-of-the-world. Here I am, eating Chinese food, in an authentic Chinese restaurant. Aren't I sophisticated!"-
While I'm sure that's true of some patrons, generalizing it sounds like a conceit to me. When I began eating Chinese food, I never had any such thought. It's different, that's about the extent of it. I've certainly never known or even read of anyone espousing anything like this, either. What little discussion I have encountered about Americans eating at Chinese restaurants in America follow the same path as with 'foreign' restaurants, which is that it's not "real" Chinese food. People are well aware that the common Chinese dishes are Americanized. The same goes for "Mexican" food. When an ethnic food is so common and popular that you can get it delivered cheaply (or pick it up in a brown bag, or even at a drive-thru) I'm pretty sure it's the odd duck who thinks they're a multi-cultural person of the world for eating it.
Posted by: MPO at Aug 13, 2009 4:34:27 PM
They are avoiding the tax man and hiding the evidence! You need to signal your willingness to pay in cash.
Posted by: Pani at Aug 13, 2009 4:38:44 PM
"They are avoiding the tax man and hiding the evidence! You need to signal your willingness to pay in cash."
I have always had the distinct impression that Chinese restaurants are less honest about taxes, employment laws, etc. than other restaurants, which is already a pretty low bar.
By the way, I have found that most (non-Asian) restaurants have a secret children's menu, wherein they will make some sort of chicken nuggets for little kids.
Posted by: liberalarts at Aug 13, 2009 4:52:59 PM
Maybe they simply don’t want to have to answer everyone’s questions about the more exotic traditional foods. Even more so if their employees are not very fluent in English.
Posted by: Mike at Aug 13, 2009 5:04:55 PM
I couldn't really tell from the post linked if the Taiwanese friend in question actually ordered off a menu that was printed only in Chinese or just simply asked the waiter for a certain dish.
I've never really encountered the former case (I'm Chinese), so I'm guessing the second case is much more common - the way my dad orders almost never involves a menu and is really more a list of required courses: "We need at least a fish dish and a soup and a pork dish and a vegetable dish or two on the side." If there's anything people want in particular, we'll order it whether it's printed on a menu or not. The end meal is always much different from when I order off the menu, even at the same restaurant.
In general, the best Chinese meals seem to be multicourse and left mostly to the restaurant's discretion. The best meal I've ever managed to order without parents or older relatives around was one of the special Lunar New Year's menus at a place in NYC where I told them I had 14 people coming and our budget was $20/person. At one point we couldn't fit another plate of lion's head meatballs or shrimp or fish onto our very large table, and every dish was delicious.
Posted by: el at Aug 13, 2009 5:31:12 PM
Maybe they want to give the average customer the feeling like they are eating something exotic and unique.
Posted by: Abraxas at Aug 13, 2009 5:31:55 PM
Hi, I'm an ethnic chinese in the Philippines.
I think what's in the menu is shortened for brevity and appeal to local 'average' taste. Filipinos, for instance, are not fond of Cantonese cuisine and are thus rarely offered here. There's a splash of Shanghai spicy cuisine here and there.
My dad will often discuss the menu with the head waiter in chinese to find out what 'off-menu' dishes are available and how they're cooked and not even bother with the printed menu. This happens when a restaurant happens upon some choice or fresh ingredients and regular customer know enough to ask first.
Posted by: Hoovenson Haw at Aug 13, 2009 5:38:39 PM
When I was in China, I would occasionally go into restaurants, and they would bring out the English menu (more like Engrish, but that's another story). I would always tell them to bring out the Chinese menu as the prices were almost always much lower. Occasionally, they would resist bringing me the Chinese menu because I suspect they were embarrassed I would realize they were trying to rip me off, but they would always give in. I've only rarely spoken Chinese to waiters in the US (usually when someone is really struggling with English, and I am certain they speak Mandarin and not Cantonese), but they have all been extremely receptive. I suspect if anyone encounters actual resistance, it's probably because they don't want you asking questions about every item on the menu, ordering some rank fish, and then complaining about it.
Another very important thing, especially in America, is I bet a lot of the Chinese menus have illegal dishes on them. Chinese people truly enjoy dishes like shark-fin soup and aphrodisiac genitalia dishes that will get you massive fines in the US. It's probably just not worth risk to have some random person looking at their true menu.
Posted by: forager at Aug 13, 2009 5:40:03 PM
@peterg: While frequenting the Chinese restaurants of LA with my white wife, the waitress would frequently say (in Mandarin) "You should get this dish -- they always like it." Oh, and "would she like a fork? and some ice water?"
Posted by: Klug at Aug 13, 2009 5:42:41 PM
Indian food in Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand, etc is usually not the same as Indian food in India. But it seems more likely that Indian food is being adapted to local tastes and ingredients than that Malaysians, Singaporeans, and Thais have "some very set though inaccurate ideas about what Indian food really is" (especially since M'sia and S'pore have large Indian populations).
This point generalizes to a lot of cuisines I've tried in various countries, but Indian food made for a good example.
This is definitely true of Chinese food in Korea, to the point that Chinese-Korean food is almost a distinct cuisine. Chajangmyun -- noodles in brown sauce -- is sort of the archetypal Chinese-Korean dish (you can get it delivered, and it's cheap), but it's not very much like the original Chinese version. Dae Sung Kwan, in Wheaton MD (near the metro station, actually) is a local place that, I think, specialises in Chinese-Korean food. But honestly, the only thing I'd ever get there is Chajangmyun, so I don't really know.
Posted by: Taeyoung at Aug 13, 2009 6:01:12 PM
Similar to anonymous above, my white girlfriend speaks fluent Mandarin (and some dialects, and Japanese too...she's an Asia specialist).
When at Chinese restaurants by ourselves, she's often loathe to speak to the staff in Mandarin, as we do notice the service frequently gets bad when she does.
However, if we're eating with Chinese in a restaurant, the staff seems impressed by her abilities.
There's definitely something to the cultural great wall theory I think.
Posted by: JackTrade at Aug 13, 2009 6:01:56 PM
When I was in Goa, I had a couple of waiters tell me that they had beef dishes available, even though they weren't on the menu. Possible explanations:
1) While Goa is much less Hindu than the rest of India, there are still enough Hindus that they might be offended and boycott any restaurant serving beef. So the restaurant only offers the beef dishes to those whom they can reliably distinguish as being non-Hindu.
2) Even among non-Hindus, beef consumption is rare in India due to cultural reasons and lack of availability. The restaurant may not always have it available, and thus it's easier to simply mention it when it is rather than list on a menu.
1 seems a bit suspect, because I doubt you could keep the beef a good enough secret to avoid trouble. Any other explanations for the "hidden beef" menu in Goa?
Posted by: Nathan at Aug 13, 2009 6:07:16 PM
Actually, Thai restaurants in the DC area quite often *do* have secret menus, which hide some of the best items. Sakulthai, Thai Square, and Bangkok 54 all do, for example. (I'll have to try Pasara in Old Town, as I was thoroughly unimpressed by the Pasara in Kingstowne, and am usually pretty successful at getting Thai places to give me their most authentic versions of dishes.)
At least in this area, the biggest reason for the hidden menu does seem to simply be fear that Americans will order dishes that they end up disliking, resulting in bad word-of-mouth, lost repeat business, and higher costs if they end up "comp"ing dishes to try to placate the upset customers. I base this on the fact that some of us in the area have been making a concerted effort to order off the secret menus and spread the word when the items on them are good, and the resulting positive feedback and increased traffic has resulted in multiple cases of restaurants publishing their secret menus. Sichuan Pavilion in Rockville reportedly just translated and published their secret menu, for example, while Sakulthai in Alexandria now has their secret menu on their website (although in Thai script).
Posted by: Sweth at Aug 13, 2009 7:13:26 PM
It would be valuable if someone knowledgeable in the various cuisines and languages would post lists of dishes likely to be found on the secret menus in both english, native characters and phonetics. That way one could go to the restaurant with a list of secret dishes to order and choose some subset based on what is available at that restaurant.
Posted by: Mitch Berkson at Aug 13, 2009 8:24:09 PM
