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Is it America or Europe which is overrated?
Bryan says Europe is overrated and here is one excerpt from a lengthy post:
...almost no one in Europe lives in places as comfortable and convenient as American suburbs: The houses are spacious, the cars are huge, cheap Big Box stores and chain restaurants are nearby, and (to quote South Park) there's "ample parking day or night.
Bryan suggests that American tourists like Europe so much because they are visiting it with U.S. incomes. I am not sure which PPP calculation he is using but I disagree at a more fundamental level. Bryan gives some good reasons why America is better for 37-year-olds with young children, namely lots of living space and easy shopping. But I view much of Western Europe as better for the elderly, if only because it requires less driving and they are more likely to live close to their children and perhaps also they receive more respect. Western Europe is probably better for children too, for reasons related to safety and health care.
My alternative view is that Americans rate European life so highly (in part) because the buildings from previous eras are so striking and attractive. If all of the U.S. looked like U.S. postwar construction, the country would still impress more or less as it does. If all of Europe looked like its postwar construction, Americans would be less likely to admire European policies and political institutions. Yes I know about Lille, and contemporary Spanish architecture, but in reality most Americans would think of Europe as some kind of dump.
Addendum: Megan McArdle comments.
Posted by Tyler Cowen on August 24, 2009 at 12:40 PM in Travel | Permalink
Comments
I can't trust someone who points to America's many suburban and exurban hell holes as a sign of prosperity, and backs it up by pointing at Hummers, SUVs, and Walmarts as a sign of a great life.
Posted by: KK slider at Aug 24, 2009 12:49:29 PM
European post-war urban apartments are truly appalling. What about the small towns and villages? Has it been better there? Remember that European tourists spend most of their time in places like New York and Boston that also has our most interesting architecture. I presume that tourists spend little time driving around our taupe, suburban developments. By the way, close access to chain restaurants is damaging to interesting, independent restaurants (and finding an interesting bar in the suburbs can't be done), so I view that as a negative.
Posted by: liberalarts at Aug 24, 2009 12:53:41 PM
Quality of life is much higher in high income American suburbs. We have bigger houses, and better appliances for most middle class families Europe would be better (health care, college). What I still don't understand is why Europeans children and pre-teens are much nicer than Americans.
Posted by: charlie at Aug 24, 2009 12:55:16 PM
>>If all of Europe looked like its postwar construction, Americans would be less likely to admire European policies and political institutions.>>
I hope you're joking.
Universal health care, a better social safety net generally, more vacation time all seem appealing
Not to mention a population that does not seem as aggressively stupid as the US population. Surveys I see of basic knowledge never seem to have half of Europeans ignorant of the fact that the earth circles the sun every year, substantial percentages not believing in evolution, etc., etc., etc.
What's so great about a massive house? Especially given the housing market these days.
Posted by: fusion at Aug 24, 2009 1:09:48 PM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned obesity. America is much fatter than Europe, and those much vaunted American suburbs are more likely to contain fat people than those crowded cities.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3062-2004May30.html
So maybe it isn't the buildings, but the people that makes Europe so attractive. So thin...
Posted by: James at Aug 24, 2009 1:11:17 PM
Bryan can have the "spacious" American suburbs. "Vacuous" is probably a better description in most cases.
Posted by: Michael F. Martin at Aug 24, 2009 1:20:19 PM
What I still don't understand is why Europeans children and pre-teens are much nicer than Americans.
Are they perhaps disciplined and punished more effectively by society when they are naughty? I recall that one incident where Francois Bayrou slapped that child automatically, as if by reflex -- unthinkable here in the US.
Posted by: Taeyoung at Aug 24, 2009 1:20:25 PM
Gosh, I almost want to leave America after reading these comments. I saw a piece last year that the average US academic has a 50% higher salary than the average European academic, so I guess that's something. Maybe it's a compensating wage differential for having to deal with all these fat, rude kids?
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=403051§ioncode=26
Posted by: David at Aug 24, 2009 1:29:44 PM
Also, Europe seems to practice better family planning than the US which may produce better behaving offspring.
Posted by: Josh at Aug 24, 2009 1:31:24 PM
Why not just look at revealed preferences? The Europe to America migration is much more common than the reverse.
Posted by: Thorfinn at Aug 24, 2009 1:32:34 PM
The modern suburb is the result of a mass exodus of people chased out of urban centers by criminals. They are not a sign of prosperity or comfort. They are a sign of bad government.
Posted by: josh at Aug 24, 2009 1:33:13 PM
With respect to cars in the suburbs, I think he's confusing necessity with a luxury.
http://theurbanophile.blogspot.com/2009/08/downside-of-living-carless-in-small.html
I mean, sure they can afford a car and the gas, but of course, if they couldn't, they wouldn't be living in the suburbs. And they still don't have health care.
Posted by: mushr00m at Aug 24, 2009 1:36:04 PM
I would note that "sprawl" and suburbanization are happening in Western Europe at just a somewhat less rapid pace as they are happening in the U.S. Furthermore, historically whereever you have had prosperity you have had "sprawl." These days of course the plebians now are wealthy enough to afford it as Cato and Cicero did.
As for healthcare, what many European countries have is universal health insurance, that is not the same thing as universal health care.
fusion,
I suspect that Europeans on average believe in dousing, UFOs, ghosts, ESP, etc. at roughly the same level as Americans do. And we all know about the anti-scientific opposition against GMOs in Europe (so much so that from time to time groups of people attack GMO research facilities). I also suspect that both populations are about as aware of what their governments are doing. Europeans are not on average any more informed, intelligent, etc. than Americans are. Of course more Europeans apparently accept evolution as the best explanation for the development of life (as I do), but ask them what speciation or punctuated evolution are and most would likely they would draw a blank. It boils largely to what is "right" to think, not an educated position on the matter.
Posted by: Seward at Aug 24, 2009 1:42:48 PM
First thing Europeans do when making more money is move further out to a larger home with more amenities ( I have a lot of family there.) They are no different than we are, except that we're usually ahead of the curve - even with the obesity; they're catching up.
Hint to the anti-suburb crowd. If larger homes with bigger lots didn't have value, nobody would do it.
Parking in my attached garage is REALLY nice.
Posted by: Tom at Aug 24, 2009 1:42:56 PM
As I said in a post on Econlog.... What attracts American's to Europe is that the laws force people to act in ways that conform to middle-class prejudices.
Middle-class prejudices have it that chains are bad, on little evidence. The same with suburbs and large supermarkets. By preventing those things from coming into being they make their nations appear more worthy.
Posted by: Current at Aug 24, 2009 1:43:22 PM
David,
I suspect that is partly because U.S. universities are so much better on average than their European counterparts. The challenge (and it really isn't one - technology is neutral IMHO) in that area comes from Asia, not Europe.
Posted by: Seward at Aug 24, 2009 1:44:30 PM
I see that this comment thread has become yet another excuse for more "vacuous soul-destroying suburbs" rants. I actually *like* working in the garden, seeing wildlife in the back yard, and hearing owls at night when I take the telescope out.
As for post-war European architecture, Tyler's point also occurred to me when I lived in Germany. The apartment buildings were really hideous.
Posted by: Derek Lowe at Aug 24, 2009 1:46:47 PM
The differences are on so many variables that it's hard to assess over- and underrating, and even what people with different preferences would choose. There's also substantial heterogeneity across both Europe and the US.
Plus, is the question a Rawlsian one (where would you rather choose to live if you should decide on being born, including health outcomes -c.f. obesity- and uncertain income), or do you choose given your current outcome?
For the Rawlsian question, I'd choose Europe (but I'm a European, that's a likely bias): There's a much lower risk of falling through completely.
If I should choose myself where to live, I'm much more indifferent. Given my high education etc., I'm pretty sure that I can make a happy life in both places.
I should add that it's not just American tourists who value historical city centers and architecture in general, we like that ourselves also.
Posted by: kalevala at Aug 24, 2009 1:49:40 PM
I really don't get all the suburb bashing. To anyone who hates the suburbs, what exactly do you consume as a city-dweller that would be much less convenient for an equivalent income suburbanite who lives say 20 miles outside the city where you live?
In my experience, anything that I would like to eat or buy or do often is equally available in Naperville, IL (and surrounding towns) than in Chicago, IL. And the stuff that I want to do rarely (eat at tru, see a musical, etc.) is an hour drive away so what's the difference?
Posted by: Joe Teicher at Aug 24, 2009 1:49:59 PM
I would posit that the relative ratios of Europe to America immigration is more due to the following two factors than revealed preference. First being multi-lingual is much more common for Europeans. It is much more likely that Europeans know English than Americans know any given non-English European language. Next international travel is much more common, and serves as a gateway to expatriation.
Posted by: Michael Foody at Aug 24, 2009 1:54:30 PM
Michael Foody,
Europeans are more multi-lingual in the sense that they know their native tongues and the current lingua franca, English. Or such is my impression. Since Americans already know English there is far less utility involved in learning another tongue. That situation might change.
Anyway, I really don't accept the whole notion that we can say which area is better because people vary in their subjective attitudes.
Posted by: Seward at Aug 24, 2009 1:59:20 PM
In addition to all the valid points made above, I don't know the average living space of an american house vs. a european house, but what I'm pretty sure of is that most europeans don't think of an american style suburban house when they thinks about buying/building a house and getting a mortgage for it. Why? Inferior wall quality (wood or other thin materials), no cellar, all houses look the same, etc, etc. Sure even in europe their are developments where most houses are the same, but much less so I believe.
Posted by: flo at Aug 24, 2009 2:03:12 PM
1. Attacking suburbs and chain restaurants and praising city-life are ways of signaling status among educated people in the U.S.
2. Suburbs and chain restaurants really do suck, all things considered, compared to cities, and only a low-status would think otherwise.
Does 1 or 2 do a better job explaining the comments in this thread?
Posted by: JB at Aug 24, 2009 2:03:14 PM
Michael Foody,
Or to borrow from a FEE lecture I recently heard, yeah, a lot of folks may immigrate to the U.S. from Europe, more so even than vice versa, but most Europeans remain in Europe.
Posted by: Seward at Aug 24, 2009 2:03:47 PM
If you like high taxes and social control, then Europe is the place for you.
Having lived there for 4 years a few random observations. (dated somewhat as it was the 80s)
1. A single family home is a luxury. Most homes under construction were actually being built by the eventual occupants and their friends in a sort of Habitat for Humanity co-operative means. Contractors would be hired for specialized work but the dumb labor, such as laying cinder blocks and interior finishing were done in free time by the owners. And mortgages were generally 40 years or more. Most homes were 3 or 4 family units the intent being to house grandma and grandpa and rent out the empties until junior was married.
2. The countryside, which is in many cases quite bucolic, is filled with small farms. And they are small, a dozen acres or less. How can they do it? Easy, government subsidies for agriculture. I learned to love Danish butter, easily 50% cheaper than US butter.
3. At the time gasoline cost 4X what it cost in the US. It's not surprising that FIATS, DAFs and VWs were popular. Also, many of the main streets are cramped, not surprising since many of the smaller towns evolved over hundreds of years.
4. Don't drink the water. In larger urban areas it's safe, but tastes horrid.
5. Would you like to go to college? Better pass your baccalaureate exam, administered when you are 16. Pass it and you get to go to college. Fail and you are tracked into a trade.
6. Most European countries have an underclass of immigrant workers imported to do the nasty jobs like picking up trash, cleaning the streets etc. They are not citizens and they are treated like "the hired help". The live in slums. Most countries do not grant birthright citizenship like the US.
7. In addition to income taxes, Germans have the privilege of paying a 14% VAT on every purchase. Gotta fund all that Christian Socialist goodness.
8. If you are an employer and you have to let someone go because your business falls off, you get to pay them 80% of their salary for the next two years.
9. Unions generally have a voting representative on the board of large firms.
10. Part of the taxes you pay go to subsidize organized religion. Ministers et al are salaried employees of the state.
Compared to Europe, the US is still the wild west. Freer, rougher and more dynamic.
Posted by: Steve C. at Aug 24, 2009 2:06:24 PM
