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What defines the Swedish soul?
This article, from Prospect, is interesting throughout. Excerpt:
Inevitably, the subject turns to sex and marriage. I'll never forget asking one group what they thought of marriage in a country where most educated young people (and half go to university) don't get married or bear children until they are well over 30. A young woman gave me a thoughtful answer and so I asked her, "What are you looking for in a husband?" Without batting an eye or pausing for thought, she answered: "Three things. One, he must be good in bed. Two, he must be a good father. Three, when we divorce, he mustn't be bitter."
Robin Hanson comments on the USA. Here is my earlier post on what I think of Sweden, one of my favorite MR posts.
Posted by Tyler Cowen on July 8, 2009 at 10:19 AM in Education | Permalink
Comments
"the Swedish soul" - singular?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzLECtFT4aU&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fullanoertoftthomsen.blogspot.com%2F&feature=player_embedded
Posted by: US at Jul 8, 2009 10:51:45 AM
followed his homesick wife from spain to sweden only to end up with a divorce? there's a lesson for wimps...
Posted by: mishka at Jul 8, 2009 11:58:06 AM
In your earlier post you say
"Sweden........ remains one of the best places in the history of the world to date ."
Is this a Freudian slip?
Posted by: Rama at Jul 8, 2009 12:57:55 PM
Absent some fundamental reason to believe either that what works in Sweden somehow contains the seeds of its own destruction and will eventually cease to work, or that it or something like it can never work in other places, the existence of Sweden is a massive, nearly unanswerable rebuke to those who say that human welfare requires religion, aggressive nationalism, rigid gender roles, hostility to public guarantees of education or health care, or any of a zillion other bad things whose defenders, when they are not defending them outright, are saying are necessary evils that we'll fall apart without.
The main thing Sweden stands as a rebuke to is religion. They have just about none of it and they're way more excellent to each other (and to everyone else) than are the godliest of the godly. It is also a rebuke to those (like Robert Wright) who point to religion as a source of, or at least a vehicle for, moral progress. The only argument left to people like Wright is that moderate religion is necessary because it, and not Sweden, is what has a chance of getting masses of people off aggressive religion. That is, the Wrights of the world can argue that moderate religion is a necessary *evil*, and they might be right. But the existence of Sweden takes away their ability to argue that religion is a source of moral progress in any fundamental sense, or that it deserves any special place in our esteem.
Which leads me to a question that I've always wondered about. Why is it not a winning political strategy in the screwed-up countries of the world to run on a platform that if elected, you'll fill your government with Swedes. "Hey folks, hate that your kids are sick all the time? You might want to meet my friend Inga. She used to run a major Swedish hospital system. Elect me and she's your next Minister of Health. Oh, and this is Sven, he used to be the Stockholm school superindendent. Elect me and he's your new Education Minister. Or don't, that's cool too. But give me a jingle if you ever want to, you know, not die of easily preventable diseases and stuff." Would that work?
Posted by: David J. Balan at Jul 8, 2009 1:33:21 PM
David J. Balan,
Sweden's birth rate, at about 1.7 per woman, is not the lowest in Europe but is nevertheless hardly sustainable. Extolling the virtues of Sweden is like extolling the virtues of a fossil-fuel based economy. Like peak oil, we have peak Sweden.
There is also some question whether the Swedish lifestyle in some sense freeloads off the technological innovation and entrepreneurial dynamism of other countries. It's hard to think of one major company that has formed in Sweden in the last 30 years or more.
Historically, patriarchal and fundamentalist societies have tended to outbreed, outpopulate and displace more egalitarian societies. There is no reason to think it will be any different this century.
Posted by: anonymous at Jul 8, 2009 1:52:16 PM
I wonder is the fact that many young people live in Sweden & work in Denmark a sign of (relatively) good Swedish housing or Danish employment law?
Posted by: nick at Jul 8, 2009 1:55:40 PM
Maybe because Sweden gets good outcomes despite its' socialism because it's full of Swedes. There's no managerial secret formula they have that would transform the screwed-up countries of the world into Scandinavia.
As for your first para, it only holds true if you assume human societies and cultures are malleable into one mould, ignoring their millenia of distinct historical development .
Posted by: Ali Choudhury at Jul 8, 2009 2:03:39 PM
"Three things. One, he must be good in bed. Two, he must be a good father. Three, when we divorce, he mustn't be bitter."
What is there that a robot could not satisfy?
Howard Roark would have been convicted in Stockholm.
Posted by: Cliff Styles at Jul 8, 2009 2:31:39 PM
How is her condition 2 possibly compatible with 3? [At least in ex ante expectation.]
Posted by: kolmogoroff at Jul 8, 2009 2:39:17 PM
"It's hard to think of one major company that has formed in Sweden in the last 30 years or more."
Um... IKEA? Ericsson? Volvo?
Posted by: anon at Jul 8, 2009 2:39:46 PM
"IKEA? Ericsson? Volvo?"
Founded 1946, 1876, 1915 respectively (although there's a little debate on the latter two, depending on incorporation dates, rollout of first product, etc.).
Honestly, the only company of note founded later than the 1950s that I found on the list below was MySQL, but I'm not familiar with enough of the fields covered to be able to say:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_of_Sweden
I think the more impressive standouts, honestly, are entities like Husqvarna (founded 1655!).
Especially in the context of the rest of Europe, I don't think Sweden is especially retarded as far as new-company formation goes. A number of countries (IKEA was ahead of the curve, apparently) rode the wave of post-WWII, post-Depression investment and innovation, and then kind of ossified in the 1950s or 1960s. Whether that's a matter of being forced out by existing corporations, or all the easy pickings already being picked up, is out of my range of expertise.
Posted by: George at Jul 8, 2009 3:10:49 PM
Florida has about twice as many people as Sweden. Can you name a major company that has formed in Florida recently?
Posted by: ed at Jul 8, 2009 3:13:23 PM
The Scandifiles should visit Fargo ND. I go their for business. Most of the people there descended from Norwegian immigrants. There seems to be no visible poverty there. It is interesting and you can get some ludafisk (sp?) of course I would rather the relative chaos of a place with lots of Italians but with much better food.
Posted by: Floccina at Jul 8, 2009 3:48:19 PM
Florida has about twice as many people as Sweden. Can you name a major company that has formed in Florida recently?
PSS World Medical
OSI Restaurant Partners, LLC
Wikipedia
Posted by: Bob Montgomery at Jul 8, 2009 4:57:48 PM
Office Depot
Posted by: Ali Choudhury at Jul 8, 2009 5:07:37 PM
And of course regarding IKEA, don't forget that their corporate structure isn't based in Sweden, and that it's an elaborate tax dodge whereby one company licenses the designs from another company, all based in various tax havens.
Posted by: John Thacker at Jul 8, 2009 5:21:28 PM
Being a Swede (no pun intended) makes me qualified to present some thought on Sweden, I think:
Firstly, socialism is bad for us. The reason Sweden still works relatively well are things economists usually don't care about, nor measure. Economist have similar problems explaining the success of Jews or the failing success of gypsies. Sweden works because of the Swedish culture. What is the Swedish culture? Well, lets say it's the opposite of Italian culture.
Sweden is a high trust, high context, ultra developed society. When I talk about development I'm talking about the culture. Jews, Italians, Americans, Vietnamese, will all reach our cultural level eventually, but we are at least 50 years ahead of them, probably much more.
Why is this so? Well it's all about history. Sweden has been a unified state for about a millennium. We have had no wars on our territory since the Kalmar Union broke up, five centuries ago. Everything has been well organized, without interruption, ever since. It is by living together in a civilized society, ruled by law, that creates a high trust, high context society.
Secondly, the socialism of contemporary Sweden is a product of the high level of militarization, Sweden has maintained since the 16th century. This required exceptional tax, propaganda and control from the state. The state was hijacked by the socialists in the 1930ies, and they have been using it to win elections ever since. Hopefully it will end soon.
Posted by: Eliasson at Jul 8, 2009 5:52:09 PM
Regarding religion, despite the low level of religiosity, Lutheranism is still
officially the state religion, part of the general story that religion does
better in places where there is no official state church, such as the US, than
in ones where there is, such as Sweden or the UK.
Regarding the matter of companies forming, so what? Is not the issue the
tech innovativeness of the companies, and some of those listed have not done
badly in this regard, including good old Husqvarna, founded back in 1655,
described to me by one friend as "the Volvo of the gardening equipment business."
Posted by: Barkley Rosser at Jul 8, 2009 5:57:20 PM
Ahhh the Swedes, mmm IKEA, that font of boring furniture widgets. Cookie cutter suburbia meets cookie cutter manufacturer.
But wait, there's more to Swedish history and IKEA...
"But not many will know about the founder's past: As a teenager, he attended Nazi Party meetings in Sweden in the three years after the end of World War II."
"Ingvar Kamprad, 73, owned up to his old Nazi leanings 5-1/2 years ago after a Swedish newspaper exposed him."
"He issued a letter of apology to Ikea employees worldwide, calling himself a "naive" youth who was driven by a fascination with his family's German roots."
"I've apologized. I've apologized to my staff and to everyone," the reclusive Kamprad said in a Reuters interview two years ago. "It was terrible, but now I want to put it all behind me."
Sure... nice to "put it all behind you" Komrade.
I wonder how much supplies did Sweden send to Hitler during the war? I forget. How much iron ore and other supplies had they cut them off would have ended Hitler's reign of terror.
Truth is, like Switzerland, they're no better than any other nation. They've benefitted by doing business with the devil in many instances.
Today, their population dwindles and leaves as Muslims swell into cities like Malmo, where young Swedish girls are raped for wearing short skirts.
The Swedish nation is about 3-4, maybe 5 decades from falling apart into a civil war or completely under the influence of Islamic aggression.
Unless they try some very aggressive Swedish only Family encouragement, they will lose everything they have built.
You cannot build an immoral society and last. History shows this again and again. You tear down the family, you lose.
Posted by: Sven at Jul 8, 2009 6:30:26 PM
@Bob: Since when is the free encyclopedia a company? The other two are unheard of here in Europe, and I only know of Home Depot because i visit the States/Canada regularly. I'm sure there are some only known in Sweden companies formed during the last 30 yrs.
@John: Yeah but most of these tax heavens are in European countries as well. IKEA is i think based for tax purposes in social-democratic Netherlands. So.
Posted by: JSK at Jul 8, 2009 6:34:33 PM
"They have just about none of it and they're way more excellent to each other (and to everyone else) than are the godliest of the godly."
I'm not remotely a religious person (nor am I someone who obsesses over it), but this is a profoundly bizarre assertion. And I think there might be some "non-domestics" in Sweden who might beg to differ with you as well.
Posted by: MPO at Jul 8, 2009 9:37:11 PM
dear swedie:
actually, us americans have had a state for 200 years and laws for over 400. the difference is we let you nasty europeans in as immigrants. so don't be too proud of yourself. learning to deal with the new is still something you haven't figured out.
But the rest (failure of socialism, militarism, etc) is all very true.
Posted by: charlie at Jul 8, 2009 9:58:14 PM
Since when is the free encyclopedia a company? The other two are unheard of here in Europe, and I only know of Home Depot because i visit the States/Canada regularly.Well, the inquiry/challenge was "major" company, not "well-known."
According to Wikipedia (see links above) -
PSS World Medical "also ranked number 965 on the 2008 Fortune 1000 list of largest businesses, up from 980 the prior year." They had almost $2 billion in revenue in 2008.
OSI Restaurant Partners has 100,000+ employees, owns something like 5-10 restaurant chains, and had over a billion dollars in revenue in 2007.
Office Depot...well, whether they are well known in Sweden or not, they had $15 billion in revenue in 2008 and have 43,000 employees.
I'll spot you Wikipedia, I guess.
They all seem like large, major companies, and all were founded in Florida in the last 30 years.
Posted by: Bob Montgomery at Jul 8, 2009 10:19:09 PM
If number of new, major, innovative companies in the past 30 years is some kind of metric to judge economic policy, what does this say about California?
Yes, IKEA's corporate structure and tax-dodging strategies are complex. So what? Have you ever noticed how many "American" companies are legally incorporated in Bermuda or the Cayman Islands?
Posted by: Ricardo at Jul 9, 2009 12:59:34 AM
Can a country that's produced ABBA and Ace of Base really have soul?
Posted by: DM at Jul 9, 2009 1:03:17 AM
