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Should you go to graduate school in a recession?
Penelope Trunk says no:
Applications to the military increase in a bad economy in a disturbingly similar way that applications to graduate school do. For the most part, both alternatives are bad. They limit your future in ways you can’t even imagine, and they are not likely to open the kind of doors you really want. Military is the terrible escape hatch for poor kids, and grad school is the terrible escape hatch for rich kids.
And:
7. Most jobs are better than they seem: You can learn from any job.
When I worked on a French chicken farm,
I thought I’d learn French, but I didn’t, because I was so foreign to
the French farm family that they couldn’t talk to me. However I did
learn a lot of other things, like how to bargain to get the best job in
the chicken coop, and how to get out of killing the bunnies. You don’t
need to be learning the perfect thing in your job. You just need to be learning. Don’t tell yourself you need a job that gives your life meaning. Jobs don’t do that; doesn’t that make you feel better? Suddenly being in the workplace doesn’t seem so bad.
8. Graduate school forces you to overinvest: It’s too high risk.
In a world where people did not change careers, grad school made sense. Today, grad school is antiquated.
You invest three to six extra years in school in order to get your
dream career. But the problem is that not only are the old dream
careers deteriorating, but even if you have a dream career, it won’t
last. You’ll want to change because you can. Because that’s normal for
today’s workplace. People who are in their twenties today will change
careers about four times in their life. Which means that grad school is
a steep investment for such a short period of time. The grad school
model needs to change to adapt to the new workplace. Until then. Stay away.
I don't completely agree, but this is a refreshing tonic.
Posted by Tyler Cowen on March 3, 2009 at 05:52 AM in Education | Permalink
Comments
Grad school is not necessary in some fields but is inherently necessary in others. Doctors, dentists, lawyers, - i would hope these people who get paid the big bucks are qualified and graduated from grad school.
Posted by: Daniel Nicolas at Mar 3, 2009 6:00:08 AM
It is attitudes like that which will make America lose it's super power status. The only reason you could make enough money on producing chickens is that US borders keeps the competition out. The low skilled workers are being subsidized by the engineers and teachers.
Posted by: GT at Mar 3, 2009 6:22:30 AM
Why do you think the military is a bad option? The military offers a lot of opportunities and skills. The structure and discipline are important for young adults and the in a lot of fields training can translate directly into a civilian job. The GI bill benifit combine with the discipline and maturity prepares people for success. I made a career of the military, 21 years after enlisting I'm leaving with an inflation adjusted retirement check for the rest of my life and I have quite a few really good job prospects even in this economy.
Posted by: Bernie at Mar 3, 2009 6:23:30 AM
In my family, we have both--Military and PhD. I'd say that both are still long careers. The military career is still expected to be 20+ years, and the PhD career promises for 40 or more at the same employer. So, my first instinct would be to say that this advice overgeneralizes. I don't know the numbers, but one can really only draw conclusions about investment in specific careers by asking what percentage of people with graduate degrees or military training are still employed in jobs that require that background N years after entering the military or leaving grad school. One should also distinguish between liberal arts vs science/engineering graduate degrees, plus officer vs. enlisted military careers. Again, overgeneralizing.
Posted by: Paul O at Mar 3, 2009 6:50:30 AM
The argument seems to be that you shouldn't go to grad school at all, and it may well be a good idea to not go. But if you /are/ going to go (or were on the indifference curve) a recession is probably the best time to go as your opportunity costs are lower and if you're lucky by the time you're finished the business cycle will have restored demand for skilled labor.
btw, the blog orgtheory has a series of posts on going to (letters and science) grad school, including the question of should you go at all.
http://orgtheory.wordpress.com/grad-skool-rulz/
Posted by: Gabriel Rossman at Mar 3, 2009 7:13:50 AM
I would have to imagine that Penelope Trunk has... well, no, I can't really imagine what experience or insight leads to her generalized and startlingly off-target assessment of military service.
Posted by: MM at Mar 3, 2009 7:23:33 AM
Are we really supposed to take Penelope Trunk seriously?
Must we?
Posted by: at Mar 3, 2009 7:26:04 AM
Ms. Trunk's opinions seem to be colored by her own area of expertise (*cough* English major *cough), and are certainly far from universally applicable. Professional fields, engineering, and the sciences (including economics) all have significant marginal returns on education, something that the liberal arts and humanities tend to lack (unless one is able to walk into a tenure-track position somewhere, a daunting task due to the glut of people in the arts).
Posted by: Michael Fisk at Mar 3, 2009 7:45:26 AM
NRP had a bit on labor shortages on French farms yesterday ...
Posted by: odograph at Mar 3, 2009 7:48:22 AM
Graduate school is a good idea only if it will allow you to accomplish what you wish. A Master's degree in the sciences and other professional fields will always give a good return . A PhD is only good if you are interested in research, teaching, and/or consulting. Don't make a choice based on economic status. If you want to attend school to accomplish your goals then do it. Otherwise find a job. You'll be much happier.
Posted by: Rob Green at Mar 3, 2009 7:53:44 AM
File this under "Topics that Appear Interesting But are Underspecified"
Who are you? What are you trying to do? What programs are you looking that?
If you don't answer these questions, the title question of this post can't be answered.
The closest I can come to a generic answer is this:
Hard Sciences/Engineering: Green light
Social Sciences: Blinking Orange light
Humanities: Giant Red Light + Air Raid Siren + Double-fortified flaming barricade + Huge Sign Reading "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here"
Law/Accounting: Green Light
Medicine: Yield (to other passions) Sign
Education: You're probably too dumb to read this blog or any sort of signPosted by: Ph.D. in 2010 at Mar 3, 2009 8:19:43 AM
Education is where you find it. Grad school, military, OJT, volunteering etc.
Posted by: CB at Mar 3, 2009 8:25:22 AM
So, we have a person whose interests would be best served by convincing people to remain in the job market, and that person advises people to remain in the job market rather than train.
Seems to be a lot of self-serving rhetoric labelled as insight around here these days.
Posted by: Sisu at Mar 3, 2009 8:27:29 AM
"Professional fields, engineering, and the sciences (including economics) all have significant marginal returns on education, something that the liberal arts and humanities tend to lack..."
So all the Philosophy, Theater, English, Language arts and Music majors are fruitless unrewarding pursuit?
So why do we teach this shit still if it does not give a good chance for a decent job? Why not eliminate the Philosophy department in favor of "Sandwich" art degrees. It would make sense since in your twisted consequentialist worldview that education equates to a paycheck; nevermind the actual useful nature of all the Humanities subjects.
So let me guess Mr. Fisk; Would you deny a job candidate that could speak four langauges and has a University education for a job opportunity in a business field, or is business the realm only for Business Admin guys.
Economics was pioneered by, Philosophers, and it took the economics department to dumb-it down so the Business majors could understand it!
Posted by: Robbie at Mar 3, 2009 8:28:09 AM
Anecdotal, I know, but I have a Masters in Computer Science, and it has served me quite well, all things considered. While I've changed jobs several times since college, I've never changed careers. Spending the time to get the Masters gave me opportunities right out of college that were much better than average, and I've been able to maintain that "better than average" trend for some time now.
I suspect that in an applied technical field, such as chemistry, engineering or computer science, graduate degrees can help a lot. Humanities, not so much :)
Posted by: jb at Mar 3, 2009 8:31:58 AM
There are too many lawyers in this country and too few legal jobs. Unless you are able to be admitted to one of the top 50 25? or so law schools your prospects of securing gainful employment are rather diminished. This is especially pertinent if you are taking out student loans to finance your education.
Recall: the vast majority of lawyers fresh out of law school earn no where near the 165,000 starting salary publicized by the big New York law firms.
Posted by: Dave at Mar 3, 2009 8:32:45 AM
It always amazes me how few people go to graduate school, who actually enjoy studying.
Posted by: Student at Mar 3, 2009 8:35:17 AM
I don't completely agree either. She didn't go far enough.
"It is attitudes like that which will make America lose it's super power status."
Have you looked at an entering graduate school class lately?Professional schools are not the same as grad school. One is for real training, the other is for credentialing.
I'm an engineer and my PhD training is way too specialized. Heck, my B.S. training was way too specialized. I have little interest in the logistics of academia (most professors' lives suck and a great many of them make less than the job I left to come back to school). Academia is kind of a pyramid scheme. If you are at the top, it's okay. Can you plan to be at the top?
Posted by: Andrew at Mar 3, 2009 8:39:32 AM
i have never been kicked in the butt intellectually as hard as i was in graduate school. (i have a math phd.) since then i have not used it directly but i have used it indirectly, both in terms of the credential (i used to run govt SBIR grants) and the what-does-not-kill-me-makes-me-stronger experience. i am sure there are other ways of getting that sort of thing, but not in a random job.
also, there's really no problem with being out of the money for a while and acting as such. america should encourage it.
Posted by: babar at Mar 3, 2009 9:09:04 AM
I can't speak for other fields, but without a PhD, it's nearly impossible to get a job as a mathematician unless you want to work for the government or you are an extremely exceptional undergraduate from the very top universities.
Posted by: Ramanujan's Notebook at Mar 3, 2009 9:12:03 AM
A problem few are probably thinking about right now is that with a surge in people going to school accompanied by a probable decline in job availability at graduation means the job market will be in oversupply. Therefore it will be much less likely that you will get the job you want at the salary you expect. Longer-term that means you may wind up sacrificing the career path you wanted to take for the immediate need of paying back student loans. For example, if you have your heart set on getting into a white shoe law firm the acceptance rate at the prerequisite Ivy League school will be lower and at graduation you will be competing with more applicants for fewer jobs. And if you do not get into a white shoe law firm right at graduation your chances of doing so in the future are very slim to none.
If you have very specific career goals in mind I think it would be a much better strategy to wait 2 to 3 years until the surge in graduates is digested by the market. Then you will be in a less competitive job market when you graduate and the probability of getting the job you want and setting yourself up on the career path you want to take will be higher.
Posted by: asiequana at Mar 3, 2009 9:35:21 AM
I found this post oddly refreshing too.
Posted by: thehova at Mar 3, 2009 9:42:42 AM
"Military is the terrible escape hatch for poor kids..."
Written by someone who doesn't understand the military and doesn't have the first clue about the causes of poverty--what made those kids poor in the first place.
Posted by: Brian at Mar 3, 2009 10:03:50 AM
As someone who enlisted after college during the white-collar recession of 89-91, I can say in retrospect it was the best decision I ever made. While indeed grad school is infantilizing in all sorts of small ways (that was my late 20s), the leadership responsibilities even at the NCO level far surpass what the average 22 yr old is being entrusted with in the corporate world. Having cash-on-hand afterwards, when my peers were stumbling under the burden of grad school debt, permitted me live overseas, become fluent in a foreign language, etc., etc.
In short, she has it completely wrong vis a vis the military. But the grad school stuff is worth thinking about...
Posted by: BT at Mar 3, 2009 11:00:53 AM
2 millions from Japan and China go to american grad school , they must know something she doesnt know
Posted by: k at Mar 3, 2009 11:06:10 AM
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