« Keith Stanovich and what IQ is good for | Main | The time is now 1234567890. »
Canada fest
Every one of my trips to Canada has been a joy and so I very much liked Will Wilkinson's post defending Canadian liberty (Will, by the way, has hit new blogging heights in the last few weeks; read through the whole bit). Here is one highlight (under the fold):
But that doesn’t begin to mean that we live up to our reputation for the kind of liberty classical liberals tend to care about. My sense is that some American libertarians have a vague sense that if Canada really was more free, then they should want to move there. But they emphatically don’t want to move to Canada. My diagnosis is that many libertarians prefer to live in a place where it easy to find others who share their individualistic and libertarian values over living in a place where they would actually be more free, but would feel more culturally alienated.
Via Megan McArdle, here's talk of safe Canadian banks and yet Canadian is still seeing the same downturn as the United States. One can preach the virtues of Canadian banking regulation as much as one wants, but the Fischer Black-like question remains: how much real net risk exposure did Canadian industry accept vis-a-vis all external sources of risk, U.S. financial institutions included? Lots. A decision not to economically decouple from a large, leveraged economy is a small bit like a decision to leverage oneself, though many people do not welcome this perspective. The bottom line is that risk mistakes have been made by just about everybody, not just the obvious culprits.
Addendum: Arnold Kling is not Canadian but Megan McArdle defends him aptly; he wasn't guilty of anything in the first place, except perhaps having exaggerated the coercive nature of taxation,
Posted by Tyler Cowen on February 13, 2009 at 11:25 AM in Political Science | Permalink
Comments
Shock of shocks, someone defending nice, true-hearted Canada, because they are so awfully picked upon. And one that in doing so chastizes America. It would be nice to see, for once, someone do the same for Canada: not bash, but chastize - openly, not in mutterings - the general practice by Canadians of openly - not in mutterings - proclaiming everything Canadian to be at its core true and just and pure, and certainly better than anything or anyone American.
I have a great many Canadian friends, true friends, and have spent a great deal of time in Canada. I don't thump my chest or proclaim, other than in good-natured ribbing which is returned, that there is anything inferior about Canada. It is simply different. But I get extremely tired of reading people who feel the need to demonstrate their own above-it-ness this way, if only because you can't shake a stick on a given day without running into this kind of thing.
Posted by: Eyeroll at Feb 13, 2009 11:43:09 AM
Couple small points:
1) The idea of Canada as culturally homogeneous is very dissonant to this Toronto-dweller. I actually feel a much higher level of homogeneity in the US, where "diversity" is often understood to be as simple as "black and white". Canada's foundation as a country with at least two cultures (French and English) tends to make us more reflexively multicultural than most other places, and our urban centres tend to be very highly integrated relative to anywhere in the US except New York. Even American cities with high levels of ethnic diversity (e.g. LA) tend to self-segretate very intensely relative to Canada - it's shocking to go to, e.g., Miami and have "the black neighbourhood" and "the latin neighbourhood" so sharply defined. Not that we don't have such things, just that in Canada I feel quite comfortable in neighbourhoods with majority non-white populations, in a way I often don't in the US.
My city is almost 50% non-white....
2) Whether Canada is "more free" kinda depends what you care about. If you like your freedom in terms of guns and racist speech, you're better off in Texas. If you like gay marriage and de facto decriminalization of marijuana, Canada's more free. We're basically what would happen if New York and San Francisco were the majority of the voting population of the US.
Posted by: Andrew Edwards at Feb 13, 2009 11:48:17 AM
How in the world could the Canadians decide to decouple from the US?
That has to be about the most unrealistic thing I have ever seen at this blog.
Posted by: spencer at Feb 13, 2009 11:48:32 AM
The US is Canada's biggest trading partner and export market by far, for obvious reasons of geography. You seem to criticize a "decision" not to economically decouple, but this is well-nigh impossible for all practical purposes. Such a decoupling would be like imposing a Cuba-style economic embargo on oneself, with permanent negative effects exceeding that of any recession.
In any case, decoupling theories have turned out to be nonsense, since Europe and China and practically every other region in the world no matter how geographically remote have been affected, in a truly global downturn.
Whenever the US economy tanks, Canada's economy inevitably suffers as well. This has nothing to do with the relative soundness of US versus Canadian banks, which is a feature of the current recession but not of previous ones. Canadian industry does not have much risk exposure to US financial institutions per se, but only to the overall US economy.
Posted by: at Feb 13, 2009 11:58:47 AM
I'm sorry but WW is nuts. There's nothing "libertarian" about speech codes, government healthcare
or rampant judicial imperialism.
Posted by: Superheater at Feb 13, 2009 12:44:56 PM
The critical point in Canadian banking is when the Liberal government refused to allow mergers between the banks (only a few are essentially the entire industry) and between the banks and the large insurers. The banks argued they needed to merge to be competitive internationally and in fact they are rather small by a relative comparison (no behemoths like UBS, in what is nevertheless a large economy). This effectively constrained their ability to actually take on risk in the US and emerging markets. Clearly one of the lessons of this crisis for economies will be that prudential regulation can't effectively account for risk exposure to external markets leading thus to the choice of either establishing transnational regulation over integrated economies or restricting how domestic capital may be put at risk abroad.
Posted by: Vladimir at Feb 13, 2009 12:45:17 PM
So how free is Canada in economic terms? How does the tax burden and the regulatory burden compare to that in the U.S.?
Can I start a mail-order business (no customer visits) out of my home without being harassed by the local authorities?
How much paperwork must I submit to the government for each employee I hire? How high are the "employer-side" taxes?
If I have the money, can I see the doctor *I* want to see?
What paperwork must I submit and how much do I have to pay in fees if I want to build my own house on a lot zoned for a single-family house?
Can I put a manufactured house on a single-family-house-zoned lot?
How easy is it to subdivide a large lot into smaller ones with single-family zoning?
How likely is it that the government will want to take my house for some private use?
If the government wants to take my house for a public use (or private), how fair will the compensation be?
If I am Geert WIlders or Mark Steyn, how free am I?
Posted by: Anthony at Feb 13, 2009 12:54:53 PM
Something to consider: the CAD dollar is a derivative of the USD in that it is exposed to north american trade flows/activity and benefits from the international security afforded by the usa pentagon/USNavy, but is excluded from the current/pending usa govt fiscal quagmire - it is not a fiat currency run by the usa govt - it does have more exposure to the agricultural and mineral and energy commodities than does USD (plus if/when water begins to trade, canada has scads of that too, plus ports to ship it from, on all three coasts (after the arctic melts, say by 2012)) - residents/citizens of the USA might benefit from this rather "un-American" viewpoint.....
hope this financial/geopolitical rant is not toooo off-topic for y'all
Posted by: franko at Feb 13, 2009 1:12:45 PM
Just for fun:
So how free is Canada in economic terms? How does the tax burden and the regulatory burden compare to that in the U.S.?
In total burden not that different, though as with all countries the tax code and regulatory burdens have been badly skewed by lobbying, just in different ways. For example, almost no biotech firms pay any taxes in Canada. I think our "rack rate" corporate tax rates are generally lower, though the US code probably has more loopholes. Our farm subsidies are as bad as yours but we subsidize slightly different garbage. Our personal tax rates are higher at the top of the income spectrum.
In terms of total tax burden, probably higher if you're rich, lower if you're poor - especially if you count things like healthcare (i.e., you're getting something for your money) - [tax + healthcare] is waaaay lower if you're poor but clearly higher if you're rich and gainfully employed.
How much paperwork must I submit to the government for each employee I hire? How high are the "employer-side" taxes?
As I said, corporate tax rate is lower at rack-rate than the US but who-the-hell-knows once you build in all the loopholes. And since healthcare benefits are a non-issue for small businesses in Canada, net paperwork is probably in line or lower up here, though I'm sure it's miserable in basically every jurisdiction anywhere ever.
If I have the money, can I see the doctor *I* want to see?
You can see the doctor you want to see even if you don't have any money.
How easy is it to subdivide a large lot into smaller ones with single-family zoning?
No idea. Why the obsession with real estate law? This seriously comes to mind before habeus corpus?
Posted by: Andrew Edwards at Feb 13, 2009 1:17:13 PM
If you really think Canada is "more free" than the US, take a look at our "Human Rights Commissions" and Ezra Levant. We are heading down the same path as places like Holland, the UK, Britain etc.
While the US focuses on "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness", Canada's motto is "Peace, Order and Good Government." I know which one I'd take...
Posted by: Derek Kreindler at Feb 13, 2009 1:25:30 PM
"except perhaps having exaggerated the coercive nature of taxation"
Are you suggesting that taxation is not coercive? If I just ask the IRS very very nicely, I'll be able to keep my money and they won't seize my bank account or property?
Posted by: Laserlight at Feb 13, 2009 1:42:47 PM
Andrew,
You never heard of the two solitudes? It's blurred to a degree over the last two decades, but it's still very prevalent in Montreal. How about "reasonable accommodation"? French Canadians have one of the most negative attitudes towards the idea of multiculturalism. Witness the recent Bouchard-Taylor commission, and even then they sought to downplay it. However, the very existence of a government sponsored commission on multiculturalism in Quebec should provide some clues as to the degree of unease/lack of acceptance that exists. Canada's free speech rights are selectively applied by a board, the Canadian Human Rights Commission, that is answerable to no one and is primarily made up of individuals who are not qualified to adjudicate cases. It’s no wonder they have a 100% conviction rate. It's illegal to sell WHEAT to anyone other than the CWB; doing so will land you in prison for a longer duration than many convicted small time illegal drug dealers. It is illegal to purchase health care services that the government mandated insurance program provides for (except for hip replacements in Quebec), even if such payment would be completely out-of-pocket on the part of the purchaser and would drastically reduce the wait time for needed care. Canada’s gun registry has not lowered the number of murders by firearms and has only cost the state billions of dollars over what they said it would cost.
Franko, The CAD value is significantly determined by the price of commodities, notably oil and gas. This will only become increasingly so in the next several decades.
Posted by: Shaun at Feb 13, 2009 2:09:14 PM
Anthony,
The first thing you must understand is that Canada is much more decentralized than the U.S, so your hypothetical mileage would vary greatly depending upon in which province you choose to live. Generally speaking, the 3 western-most provinces (Saskatchewan, Alberta, and British Columbia) are the most like the U.S, both from a tax and regulatory burden. They also have stronger elements libertarianism, perhaps proportionally higher than anywhere else in North America.
Ontario is almost 40% of Canada’s population, so it’s hard to ignore however. Your tax burden, if you’re married and your household income is <100k, will not be substantially different than most American states once you take into account the costs of healthcare. If you make more than say 125k, you will pay substantially more in taxes. Proportionally, Canada has a much smaller upper-middle income class than the U.S for this reason. If you make less than 35k a year, you will pay about the same, but your quality of life will be improved over the U.S thanks to the healthcare and public transit subsidies (remember 1/3 of Canada’s population lives in Montreal, Toronto, or Vancouver). Proportionally, Canada has a much larger lower-middle income class than the U.S for this reason.
Quebec is well… Quebec. If you make over 70k and you’re single, you’re screwed. The difference in income taxes between a married couple making $150k in Quebec versus Alberta is on the order of $10k per year. That’s not taking into account significantly higher user fees, 7.5% provincial sales and goods tax, higher insurance premiums, etc. Not surprisingly, Quebec has the most instances of tax evasion in the country and a large black market economy. Government red tape for businesses and individuals is also more substantial. Quebec is closer to the European continental model than it is the North American one. If you plan to start a business, keep in mind that 40% of its workforce is unionized.
Posted by: Shaun at Feb 13, 2009 2:30:02 PM
Generally speaking, the 3 western-most provinces (Saskatchewan, Alberta, and British Columbia) are the most like the U.S, both from a tax and regulatory burden. They also have stronger elements libertarianism, perhaps proportionally higher than anywhere else in North America.
Yeah, no. They might have the strongest elements of libertarianism in Canada but that's not saying much. The only thing that somewhat supports your assertion is the level of the rural population which is mildly more individualistic than elsewhere. But you must remember that Saskatchewan is the birthplace of Canada's democratic socialist party, the New Democratic Party and Manitoba falls in line with this. Only recently has Saskatchewan abandoned its love of the NDP, but it has nothing to do with being libertarian.
I'm convinced the people that argue that the West is libertarian or even somewhat libertarian has never lived here. It's a myth.
Posted by: Robert S. Porter at Feb 13, 2009 2:45:52 PM
There's nothing "libertarian" about speech codes, government healthcare or rampant judicial imperialism.
All of which are also present in the U.S.
Posted by: Blackadder at Feb 13, 2009 2:47:02 PM
Tyler, you are not defending Arnold aptly. First, you refer to the issue in an addendum to a post on something else. Second, you should have said: "He wasn't guilty of anything" PUNTO. Third, you should have denounced Paul Krugman, well known because he is not honest, and the NYT (I understand you do some work for them).
Posted by: E. Barandiaran at Feb 13, 2009 2:50:09 PM
For all the people complaining about human rights commissions and regulations in Canada, yes they inhibit freedom.
The question is not which is the paragon of freedom, the US or Canada, but which is more free? Both the US and Canada have large and significant limits on the freedom of residents. Setting up a mail order business from home is a pain in the US too, I worked for one, and there was tons of paperwork.
Both countries are unfree in important ways, but I think (having lived as an adult in both Canada and the US), that Canada is slightly more free than the US, though Quebec is a bit of an exception with regard to business law. But then again, Texas is an exception in the US with regard to civil liberties.
Posted by: Peter at Feb 13, 2009 3:11:38 PM
Exaggerating the coercive nature of taxation is assuredly not what Arnold would be guilty of. He is, after all, an economist, not a Treasury Secretary.
Posted by: Andrew at Feb 13, 2009 3:13:51 PM
Robert,
I live in Calgary. Does that count? I never said they represented a majority. I didn't include Manitoba. Saskatchewan was dominated by the NDP because of vote splitting. Anyway, I'm not so sure they were ever in love with the NDP so much as looking for a political voice in Ottawa. They could call the NDP their own, even if it meant voting against their own self interest. They're 3% of Canada's population, but the NDP made them more important on the national scene. Look how quickly they've abandoned the principles of the NDP once a united party was formed both provincially and federally (right of centre). Contrary to popular belief, Albertans and BCers actually have the highest proportion of non-religious folks in the country and generally supported gay marriage. They definitely don't believe in the gun registry. Alberta has substantially contracted out all of its citizen government services to the private sector. Is there any state in the U.S that doesn't have a DMV and government registrar’s office? The west has been most vocal about the overreach of the Supreme Court and the censorship of speech rights, but because of their percentage of population, they can't change the laws in Ottawa. In terms of economic freedom, Alberta is ranked 2nd out of all US states and Canadian provinces by the Fraser Institute.
Posted by: Shaun at Feb 13, 2009 3:14:03 PM
Now that I think on it, an actual gang of thugs deserves more respect than these creeps. A gang would just beat me down and take what they want without telling me how righteous and patriotic they are.
Posted by: Andrew at Feb 13, 2009 3:36:32 PM
"While the US focuses on "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness", Canada's motto is "Peace, Order and Good Government." I know which one I'd take..."
Neither motto is mutually exclusive. I think citizens in both counties would agree that all six are goals.
Much of the perceived intolerance Canadians have towards the right-wing isn’t intolerance as much as understanding yet disagreeing with that viewpoint.
For example, I am a very liberal person from Toronto. I value the right to bear arms. I simply think an easily obtainable government permit for a rifle is a reasonable expectation :)
Posted by: Mark at Feb 13, 2009 3:41:27 PM
just for chuckles, check out the july holidays for canada and usa in 2009 - canada day is a day off in the middle of the week (july1) but july4 falls on a saturday so most americans will not even get a day off!! who approved either one of these arrangements? twits all
Posted by: franko at Feb 13, 2009 3:45:49 PM
"canada day is a day off in the middle of the week (july1) but july4 falls on a saturday so most americans will not even get a day off!! who approved either one of these arrangements? twits all"
This is like complaining that Daylight Savings causes global warming.
Posted by: grot at Feb 13, 2009 4:10:57 PM
If you like your freedom in terms of guns and racist speech, you're better off in Texas
Actually, there is no connection between racism and hate-speech convictions in Canada. You can openly declare yourself a Nazi and advocate genocide as long as you have pals in the Liberal Party and NDP (like Ahenakew)... however, offend a well-organized religious group (for example, by politely opposing the practice of Sharia law in Ontario Family Courts), and you will find yourself up on charges. Even mainstream center-left newspapers find themselves in front of "Human Rights Tribunals" ('hate criminals' don't get a jury trial, they go in front of a politically appointed Guantanamo-style panel to be judged).
So-called "hate speech" laws have nothing whatsoever to do with actually preventing "hate speech" in Canada, "hate speech" is often outright subsidized by the government (just look at some of the fear-mongering nationalistic programs on the CBC). Essentially, you can be as hateful as you want in Canada so long as you have a well-organized political machine to protect you... or you can do something as innocent as naming your bar "El Gato Negro" and be brought up on hate charges.
Don't believe the whole "hate speech" propaganda that Canadians repeat. People get away with being openly and violently racist all the time in Canada, and people who aren't remotely hateful or racist have their lives destroyed by "Human Rights Tribunals". Canada has censorship, plain and simple, and people shouldn't be distracted by the false claims that the censorship has anything to do with racism. That is just a way for embarrassed Canadians to try to smear people who disagree with their form of state-sponsored censorship as "racists".
Posted by: ZippyPippy at Feb 13, 2009 4:47:07 PM
That's cool. In America, people who always disliked taxes have recently become racist once we got a black prez. That's how we rollz.
Posted by: Andrew at Feb 13, 2009 4:57:05 PM