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Trade-offs
Here's Atrios:
I Want A Big Yard In A Walkable Community
But you can't have it! Or, more specifically, if everyone has a big yard the community ceases to be especially walkable. That isn't to say that you can't have developments with yards relatively near to retail, so that there is stuff within walking distance. You can still have corner shops or similar, but having sufficient residential density to support significant neighborhood-serving retail isn't really compatible with everyone has a big yard.
Keep your yard! Just understand the tradeoff.
Posted by Tyler Cowen on August 6, 2008 at 08:28 AM in Economics | Permalink
Comments
or you can move to tyson's corner, and have neither!
Posted by: whee at Aug 6, 2008 8:56:29 AM
BUT I WANT IT!!!! MOMMY, TYLER'S BEING MEAN AGAIN!!!
Seriously, shouldn't big yards go out of style? On bike rides through rich suburbs with big yards you see mostly landscaping services out there. Not many people.
Where are the kids making forts and whiffleball, the adults playing frisbee or practice chipping, the badminton games, the sunbathers and the other stuff that explain why you have a big yard in the first place?
If these activities are no longer popular, a big yard is an expendable expense, just like a separate dining room or living room might be if all the actual living goes on in the kitchen and family room.
Posted by: ZBicyclist at Aug 6, 2008 9:06:17 AM
But "big" is a highly relative term. I live in a very walkable neighborhood (as evidenced by the amount of walking my family and I do in it) and we have a front yard that's big enough for lots of flowers, a big tree, and has plenty of room for the kids to play. The back yard is big enough for my 18x3 vegetable garden, two large lilac bushes, the grill, a patio, and more playspace.
Does that make it a big yard? It's bigger than my north side neighbors' yard and smaller than the one to the south of me.
Maybe I can't have a lawn that Atrios defines as big and still live in a walkable community. But I can have one that's big enough to make me happy (or unhappy, when it's time to weed.)
Posted by: Sarah S. at Aug 6, 2008 9:09:48 AM
You could if people were willing to pay much more for the products that they buy at the local retailer. So the retailer increases the mark up and so can make it on fewer customers but I agree that people will not want to do that.
Posted by: floccina at Aug 6, 2008 9:55:30 AM
Where are the kids making forts and whiffleball, the adults playing frisbee or practice chipping, the badminton games, the sunbathers and the other stuff that explain why you have a big yard in the first place?
If these activities are no longer popular, a big yard is an expendable expense
Like many things, there's usually more satisfaction from the idea that you *could* do all the things that a large yard offers than actually doing the things that a large yard offers. I think we all know how the economy would suffer if we only purchased stuff that we were actually going to use.
Really, the benefit of actually using the item rather than simply owning it is secondary, and often enough using the item *decreases* the satisfaction. I have a lot of fun dreaming about my upgraded computer hardware. Then I finally assemble it and turn it on, and suddenly it's just another computer. ho hum.
Posted by: Tom West at Aug 6, 2008 10:00:34 AM
I grew up in a SoCal suburb with 1/4 to 1/3 acre lots. That's big enough for a swimming pool, a few patios, ornamental and vegetable pots, and a dozen fruit trees.
We walked it, as kids. With bikes we got that much more mobile.
Why isn't it classed as walkable today? Probably time, the pace of life, and the availability of the car. Families could walk to local restaurants, but why at this point? A few bucks in gas makes a fast trip to many more choices.
I think those neighborhoods will evolve to be more walkable (and bikeable) if fuel prices continue to rise. I think a lot of our suburbs have the potential to be "mesh villages" with local movie houses & etc. Time will tell,
Posted by: odograph at Aug 6, 2008 10:02:32 AM
I'd rather have a smaller yard, a walkable community and public spaces (that is, a shared yard).
Posted by: wintermute at Aug 6, 2008 10:05:32 AM
Has he been to any town that was developed before 1945?
Posted by: 8 at Aug 6, 2008 10:26:03 AM
The average lot size in Rancho Santa Fe (covenant) is probably well over 3 acres. It has 45 miles of riding/walking trails despite being less than 7 square miles in size.
Posted by: Mercutio.Mont at Aug 6, 2008 10:26:13 AM
I live in a 1910-1940's neighborhood built up around a now nonexistent trolley system. Lots are small but plenty of room to have a nice garden in the front and a fenced in area in the back. Also there are parks within 3-4 blocks.
I really don't get what people use lots bigger than this for. Do they play touch football? Croquet? Seems like more than anything they end up being a lot of grass that has to be mowed and is not used. When we need more space we go to the park.
I guess the big benefit is that your house is not close to your neighbors so you feel that you have more privacy. I can pretty much see into my neighbors kitichen from my living room if we both have our shades up. But shubs/trees and blinds/drapes can take care of that problem.
Posted by: eccdogg at Aug 6, 2008 10:29:45 AM
I would rather ditch the yard if it makes ditching the car easier.
Posted by: Martin at Aug 6, 2008 10:53:34 AM
Of course, the corollary to people not using their huge front lawns is that in "walkable" areas, plenty of people drive anyway. Both are overrated.
Posted by: anonymous_coward at Aug 6, 2008 10:59:26 AM
Where are the kids making forts and whiffleball, the adults playing frisbee or practice chipping, the badminton games, the sunbathers and the other stuff that explain why you have a big yard in the first place?
They're in the BACK yard, behind the fence. For good or ill, the main reason for a big yard is space between you and your neighbors. With the trend toward smaller offices (and cubes) even for management, and the general clutter of life, folks will pay a premium for a peaceful, quiet yard.
Posted by: Jim at Aug 6, 2008 10:59:50 AM
News flash...
Not everyone in the country lives on the east or west coasts.
Most of the country is not northern Virginia or southern California.
Posted by: save_the_rustbelt at Aug 6, 2008 11:03:26 AM
I would love to live in a walkable neighborhood with more shared public space except for the problem of having to deal with the breeders' brats. As it is now, in our neighborhood park, small kids are warned by their parents not to talk to strangers and parents have actually been known to call 911 if a stranger approaches their kid. Who wants to share public spaces with brats you can't talk to or, even better, discipline?
What makes places like Brazil a hell of a lot more fun is that there you can freely approach any person of any age in any public place and have a human interaction, something missing in Amerika.
Posted by: jimbino at Aug 6, 2008 11:12:24 AM
I really don't get what people use lots bigger than this for. Do they play touch football? Croquet?
I do, in fact, play croquet in my relatively large yard. I can't really play at a park either; my agressive playing style might injure children or small dogs.
Posted by: ingres at Aug 6, 2008 11:34:04 AM
I'd rather have a smaller yard, a walkable community and public spaces (that is, a shared yard).
Posted by: wintermute at Aug 6, 2008
?
Second that completely....
Posted by: Brad at Aug 6, 2008 11:38:31 AM
I'd rather have a smaller yard, a walkable community and public spaces (that is, a shared yard).
Posted by: wintermute at Aug 6, 2008
Second that completely....
Posted by: Brad at Aug 6, 2008 11:39:26 AM
I really don't get what people use lots bigger than this for.
We're on half-acre lots. I tell people that my neighborhood is zoned for clear fields of fire.
Posted by: The Sheep Nazi at Aug 6, 2008 11:42:26 AM
I'm not sure density is as important as Atrios is getting at. It think land use and design are greater factors.
My parents live in a small town in NC where most houses have large yards but that is still fairly walkable. Shops and restaurants are an easy stroll away (admittedly my parents still always drive). I think the key is that this town has changed little in the past 50 years. It is built on a grid, as towns used to be, and it is hard to go four or five houses without hitting a cross street. Also, shifts in land use are frequent.
In contrast, in recent decades, most houses with large yards have been built in residential-only neighborhoods laid out in a series of cul-de-sacs and long curvy roads emptying onto busy main streets. The smaller streets are creepily empty, the major roads jammed with traffic, and getting from house to store requres a minumum 1-mile walk.
Posted by: Thelonious_Nick at Aug 6, 2008 11:44:17 AM
Just find the population dense, but walkable community you want to live in, buy 2 houses (or lots), knock one down and use that space for your yard.
Posted by: Patinator at Aug 6, 2008 11:46:12 AM
Atrios seems to imply that the main problem is density, but I see it as more an issue of land use and design.
My parents live in a small town in NC that is quite walkable despite the fact that most houses there have large yards. (Admittedly, my parents still drive everywhere, but never mind that.) I think the key is that the town is changed little in the past 50 years. It is built on a grid, as towns used to be, and it is hard to go more than four or five houses without hitting a cross street. There are also frequent land use shifts.
In contrast, most houses with large yards built in recent decades are in residential-only neighborhoods designed around cul-de-sacs and long, curvy roads emptying onto broad avenues. The side streets are creepily empty, crossing the high-speed traffic on the avenues is terrifyingly dangerous, and a walk from house to store would often be a mile or more.
Posted by: Thelonious_Nick at Aug 6, 2008 11:50:03 AM
A few comments...
-If you have a yard, you can send the kids out to play and still get something done around the house (like laundry, cooking dinner, etc.). This is not possible if you are at a park a few blocks away.
-If you have a large yard and your kids play in it for four hours (likely nonconsecutive) every day - pretty heavy use, I'd say - that still leaves 10-12 hours a day that it is not being used, so at a glance (say, by a passing bicycler) it would seem that it gets virtually no use at all.
-People with yards still go to the park, often quite frequently. They aren't really substitutes in my experience. The yard is for things like digging in the sandbox, climbing on top of the playhouse, playing in the inflatable pool or slip-n-slide - the park is for, mostly, riding your bike to, but also for playing on the jungle gym, riding bikes/scooters on the unused tennis court, playing baseball on a real baseball field. We aren't going to lug our inflatable pool to the neighborhood park nor do we have room for a fullsize baseball field in our yard.
Posted by: Bob Montgomery at Aug 6, 2008 11:50:39 AM
A few comments...
-If you have a yard, you can send the kids out to play and still get something done around the house (like laundry, cooking dinner, etc.). This is not possible if you are at a park a few blocks away.
-If you have a large yard and your kids play in it for four hours (likely nonconsecutive) every day - pretty heavy use, I'd say - that still leaves 10-12 hours a day that it is not being used, so at a glance (say, by a passing bicycler) it would seem that it gets virtually no use at all.
-People with yards still go to the park, often quite frequently. They aren't really substitutes in my experience. The yard is for things like digging in the sandbox, climbing on top of the playhouse, playing in the inflatable pool or slip-n-slide - the park is for, mostly, riding your bike to, but also for playing on the jungle gym, riding bikes/scooters on the unused tennis court, playing baseball on a real baseball field. We aren't going to lug our inflatable pool to the neighborhood park nor do we have room for a fullsize baseball field in our yard.
Posted by: Bob Montgomery at Aug 6, 2008 11:52:33 AM
I might add that public parks don't alleviate the situation as much as one would like.
Kids can't do much playing in small townhouse yards. If you make parks into communal yards, expect to spend more time or money on child care. You can't just let kids below 9 or 10 years old run around in the park without supervision. Furthermore, treehouses (and--depending on the municipality--volleyball,badminton and barbecues) are not allowed in public parks. Not to mention the convenience factor. Public goods aren't always strong substitutes for private goods.
Posted by: at Aug 6, 2008 11:54:07 AM
