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From the comments: "America the Beautiful"?
I'm always one for airing grievances:
Tyler, Common among economists and some among the autisitic spectrum is the tenedency to belive the map is more real than the landscape, the model complete and accurate and that everything you were taught in econ seminars came donw on tablets. The Candide, America love it or leave it attitude is a tad tiresome. There are problems out there big guy and the Solow model or the Romer Model don't mean shit.
Here is a compendium of my anti-American attitudes:
1. The number of Americans in prison remains an underreported scandal, as well as the conditions they face.
2. Problems of race relations are underestimated, to this very day.
3. For whatever reasons, smart American women seem to be more insecure than are Western European women. Yes that's a vulnerable overgeneralization and I will take some lumps for it in the comments but I still think it's basically true.
4. I could not live in rural America and be happy.
5. America faces a massive current and future problem resulting from the apparent uneducability of a large chunk of its citizens. While I do favor school choice, it's not just government education which is at fault; many better school systems around the world are government-run.
6. Gun owners may well be happy, but it is not a culture I relate to.
7. The American culture of individual freedom is closely linked to the prevalence of mental illness and gun-based violence in this country. We can't seem to get only the brighter side of non-conformity.
8. America is the worst offender when it comes to factory farming and the treatment of animals.
On the brighter side, America has a decent economic track record, the Solow model does matter (try living and earning in countries with poor Solow indicators), America remains the world's leading innovator, and most Americans -- at least those not in prison or on drugs -- can expect a bright future. It's not as if I'm pushing the future economic prospects of Suriname.
I also believe (contra the blogging progressives) that America is fated (for better or worse, but in my view not worse) to remain predominantly captured by corporate interests and that America does a better job absorbing and elevating immigrants than perhaps any other country.
Many Europeans fear deep down that America will have a permanently higher growth rate and that the European way of life will, sooner or later, be forced to disappear. Right now I would bet against this proposition, as I see a new Europe revitalized by intra-EU immigration. But there is still, say, a 30 percent chance it is true and polemics against Uncle Sam are in part a reflection of that deep insecurity.
Posted by Tyler Cowen on April 23, 2008 at 06:08 AM in Political Science | Permalink
Comments
In 7, mental illness, how?
Posted by: jonm at Apr 23, 2008 7:31:57 AM
"4. I could not live in rural America and be happy."
This reason is silly, on my different levels.
Posted by: thehova at Apr 23, 2008 8:01:01 AM
You really succeed in this post. With all the specifics it should be really hard for someone to accuse you of being "love it or leave it" any more.
Posted by: Noumenon at Apr 23, 2008 8:12:41 AM
Yes, please expand on #7. Do you mean our individualistic culture is the result of, or somehow relies on, mental illness? Or do you think the mentally ill get poor treatment due to the individualistic culture? Or do you think a more individualistic culture causes or worsens mental illness by socially isolating at risk people? Thanks.
Posted by: david at Apr 23, 2008 8:28:53 AM
What are Solow indicators? Is there is listing of countries with high or low ones? A Google check did not give me very much/good/digestible information.
Posted by: Peripatetic Entrepreneur at Apr 23, 2008 8:29:34 AM
When I read "America the Beautiful" I thought of nature ... but "I could not live in rural America and be happy."
Well, I hope enough policy wonks like nature that we keep some.
(re. a previous comments thread and US birthrates ... I don't want longer lines at Yosemite either.)
Posted by: odograph at Apr 23, 2008 8:32:06 AM
The number of Americans in prison remains an underreported scandal, as well as the conditions they face.
Prohibition didn't work in the 1920s and 30s, and it isn't working today.
I could not live in rural America and be happy.
Since [Hendrick Houthakker] retired from Harvard in 1994, [he and his wife] spent much of their time in Pomfret, surrounded by the Vermont countryside. "My husband loved it," [Houthakker's wife] Tymieniecka said. "We spent a life of idyllic adventure because we were doing things that we found fascinating and we were doing it for joy. Pomfret we called our paradise. When we were going back home from somewhere else, he would say, 'We are going back to our paradise.'"
Hendrick Houthakker Obituary, Boston Globe
Posted by: chug at Apr 23, 2008 8:40:32 AM
The gun culture as you may be thinking of it represents a small percentage of gun owners. We hunt or just like to target shoot. Some carry for self-protection. We understand that it is a tiny minority that want to take all guns away and it just isnt going to happen. You really ought to try it sometime. Find someone with a nice chunk of land and just go shoot some stuff up or knock off a few clay pigeons. Hunting can be tedious if you didnt grow up with it. It is a really good way to get away from the wife.
The true gun nuts who think there should be no restrictions on what kind of guns you can have and how many are uncommon but get lots of press.
Then there is the gray area of whether individual communities should be able to pass stricter rules about gun ownership. There are real differences of opinion here and both sides have valid points. It is politicized heavily.
Steve
Posted by: steve at Apr 23, 2008 8:50:27 AM
Speaking from Finland I don't think anyone in this neck of the woods (the Nordics or even Northern Europe) is insecure that Americans might have a better underlying system than we do. What we fear is that the marketing juggernaught that is America Inc manages to spin GDP per capita figures so that people read them as reflecting a higher quality of life. On that basis we fear a push to follow the US model and see the erosion of things integral to our quality of life - such as liveable unemployment insurance, free at the point of delivery healthcare, low crime rates, a fairly consensual harmonious society etc etc.
Fortunately for us, the US is facing difficulties now that mean it is likely that in five years the GDP gap between our countries will be about 10% rather than 25%. That should be enough to keep the wolves at bay.
Posted by: Finnsense at Apr 23, 2008 8:56:18 AM
As to #1, how do you define awful prison conditions and are they worse than in other parts of the world, even western European countries? I heard Frank Abagnale speak last year and he said his prison experience in France was far worse than his prison experience in the United States. Granted, that was 40 years ago, but I doubt much has changed.
As to #4, could you live in truly rural anywhere and be happy? And how do you know you couldn't be happy? Have you tried it for an extended period of time? Or are you speculating based on uninformed biases?
Posted by: Ted Craig at Apr 23, 2008 8:58:58 AM
wrt #8: by "worst offender" do you mean, "most efficient?"
Posted by: Nate at Apr 23, 2008 9:09:44 AM
I also think that you misunderstand the rural/gun culture. Having grown up in NY I had some funny misconceptions before I moved out to NM where I lived rurally for several years: unless you have lived out in the rural South West, you have no idea how much of America lives.
The gun culture there is not violent, misogynistic, angry, nationalistic, irrational or crazy. It may be a little macho. But for the most part, its about individual rights, the sport of shooting and the protection of the innocent.
People (not just men) who grew up or adopted that culture believe that one has the right to defend his own home and children and defend himself against the government in case it tries to get out of hand; and they like to go shooting - most often targets, occasionally some nice tasty dinner (organic!)
If you don't think you could live rural simply because its too isolated, I hear that. But, if you think the culture isn't one you could become accustomed to- the independent spirit, the freedom, the love of nature- well, I think you could and would greatly appreciate it once you got to know it.
Posted by: liberty at Apr 23, 2008 9:22:13 AM
Also something I don't understand: how is American culture of freedom correlated with gun violence? Most gun violence happens in the paternalistic inner city, not the rural South West where the greatest spirit of freedom lives.
If you just mean that America has more gun violence than other countries, OK, but it doesn't prove that this has anything to do with our spirit of freedom. Nor do I understand the mental illness bit.
Posted by: liberty at Apr 23, 2008 9:25:21 AM
What I don't understand is why Europeans care that Americans think that their country is great.
I think my wife is the best woman in the world.
That is why I married her.
That doesn't mean that you can't think your wife is great too.
I think my country is great. That is why I live here.
I expect that Europeans think that their countries are great too. Good for them. I don't spend two seconds worrying about what other people think about their own country or trying to point out shortcomings. Heck I don't know enough first hand about any European country to even make valid comparisons (and most Europeans don't know enough about the US either).
Why so much haterism from Europeans? I'm with Tyler, seems like some insecurity about something to me.
Posted by: eccdogg at Apr 23, 2008 9:31:06 AM
"America faces a massive current and future problem resulting from the apparent uneducability of a large chunk of its citizens."
I could not disagree more. A large chunk of Americans are not educating themselves because there is no reason for them to do so. The safety net has destroyed their motivation.
19th century slaves in the U.S. faced far more obstacles to education before and after their emancipation. Yet they were still motivated to learn.
The idea that minorities or any other subsets of the population are mentally or emotionally inferior, and unable to achieve economic well-being without assistance, is just a disgusting attitude, IMO.
Posted by: John Dewey at Apr 23, 2008 9:35:36 AM
Boy I would like to see you elaborate on 7.
Posted by: Floccina at Apr 23, 2008 9:38:10 AM
"8. America is the worst offender when it comes to factory farming and the treatment of animals."
Really, more than China? Animals have a hard time here, no doubt, but face it, virtually no one anywhere thinks they deserve consideration. And as a self-proclaimed "foody", I doubt Tyler is helping matters much. His complaint is disingenuous.
Posted by: Dennis Mangan at Apr 23, 2008 10:02:34 AM
I agree most strongly with #5. Am a bit confused by #7. To the list I would add rampant obesity and NASCAR (semi-kidding with that one).
Posted by: Colin at Apr 23, 2008 10:03:47 AM
Regarding #4, I could not live in rural America and be happy.
I grew up in rural Montana, and moved to Atlanta Georgia.
I swear to you, when I first moved to Atlanta, I couldn't find stuff to do. Sure there were a few museums, but aside from that, there seemed to be very little to do in the big city.
Of course that's rediculous, there's lots to do in the big city. It just took me time to get used to it. There is one major difference though.
In the city, just about everything costs money to do. In the country, everything is cheap to free.
When I lived in Montana, I entertained myself very well. There's tons of stuff to do outdoors. If you're bored in a rural area, it's your own fault. It just takes a little creativity. In the city, it takes planning and a little time paying attention to what's around.
Of course, I'm not going to tell you what you enjoy.
Posted by: Louis at Apr 23, 2008 10:05:05 AM
By the way, is the boutique cruelty of producing foie gras preferable?
Posted by: Ted Craig at Apr 23, 2008 10:06:48 AM
I heard Frank Abagnale speak last year and he said his prison experience in France was far worse than his prison experience in the United States. Granted, that was 40 years ago, but I doubt much has changed.
I suspect -- without numbers, just an impression from my understanding of the history and the occasional amnesty international report -- that France has improved somewhat from the 60s, and that America is a more mixed bag, better in some ways, and much worse in others.
As far as France goes, in the 60s, France was a pretty brutally authoritarian country in a lot of respects. That had probably levelled off by the end of the 60s, but in the late 50s and early 60s, Maurice Papon, a senior bureaucrat in Vichy France, was placed in charge of the police in Paris and behaved pretty much as you might expect a Nazi official to do. People got disappeared, and there were a couple massacres of protestors. I would not be surprised to hear that this kind of attitude towards the population (especially the Algerians and other African immigrants) translated directly into brutal prison conditions. French prison conditions are still reputed to be quite inhumane, but I'm sure they're better than they were then.
For America, we imprison a lot more people nowadays, and anecdotally, prisons seem to be a lot more violent. My guess is that certain classes of prison are better than they were then, with better facilities and amenities and so on, but that state prisons are worse than they were then. Was there widespread prison rape 40 years ago, for example? Did you have gangs fighting it out right there in prison? Maybe you did -- I'm certainly no expert on prison history -- but I get the impression that this is a problem that emerged over the 80s and really the 90s, when our prison population skyrocketed.
Posted by: Taeyoung at Apr 23, 2008 10:12:57 AM
on #5, I think Tyler is, sadly, right and Dewey is wrong. But it's not just America that has a large chunk of uneducable citizens - it's also Britain, Western Europe, Russia, everywhere. You can blame the "safety net" but the reality is most companies would not hire these people if given a choice - there are millions of humans today who are quite well adapted for physical labor, can get by in factory labor but do not have the mental or social aptitude to perform well in jobs requiring data analysis, symbol manipulation or other forms of abstract reasoning. Technology is outpacing human evolution and it's creating real tension.
Posted by: vanya at Apr 23, 2008 10:16:19 AM
You are starting to sound like an overpaid economist academic.
I suggest you read Julian Simon's paper on population growth and freedom.
Most of the violence in society comes from socialist families, that is, families where the women and children were raised and supported by the government/welfare state. The children were viewed as economic units which were discarded at age 18. Having been cheated out of a decent education by the public school monopoly, the children joined gangs to satisfy their social and economic needs and usually end up in prison. Without welfare programs, this episode is unlikely to repeat itself in our lifetimes, unless Clinton or Obama gets into the White House.
As far as guns go, some groups of people are shooting each other, so the solution is take guns away from law-abiding citizens?
We use capitalism for efficiency not necessarily ethics. That's why we have laws. However, I can't imagine a food producer with sick animals staying in business too long. If it was as widespread as represented, many more animals would be dying.
You watch too much TV.
Posted by: jorod at Apr 23, 2008 10:25:08 AM
Hmmmm...large chunks of the U.S population not getting educated? Why does it necessarily have to be blamed on the welfare state. Many Western European countries have a large welfare state and yet they dont suffer from the same problem. I have to say more than anything that large chunks of the American underclass are simply stuck in a rut of 'bad culture.'
I live in Miami and see it first hand everyday. The same single family kids born into families much too large for their parent's economic means and guess what? People get left behind and unfortunately this cycle seems as though it will have no end.
'Ghetto culture', especially the aimless-non political brand found in the U.S, is really much more awful for society than people want to realize. If criticism of it was not so heavily correlated with racism it would be chastised to a far greater degree than it currently is.
Posted by: John Pertz at Apr 23, 2008 10:42:24 AM
Hmmmm...large chunks of the U.S population not getting educated? Why does it necessarily have to be blamed on the welfare state. Many Western European countries have a large welfare state and yet they dont suffer from the same problem. I have to say more than anything that large chunks of the American underclass are simply stuck in a rut of 'bad culture.'
I live in Miami and see it first hand everyday. The same single family kids born into families much too large for their parent's economic means and guess what? People get left behind and unfortunately this cycle seems as though it will have no end.
'Ghetto culture', especially the aimless-non political brand found in the U.S, is really much more awful for society than people want to realize. If criticism of it was not so heavily correlated with racism it would be chastised to a far greater degree than it currently is.
Posted by: John Pertz at Apr 23, 2008 10:43:20 AM
