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Retribution, by Max Hastings
In the course of the war, Germany lost 781 submarines, Japan 128. By contrast, the Japanese navy sank only 41 American submarines, 18 percent of those which saw combat duty. Six more were lost accidentally on Pacific patrols. Even these relatively modest casualties meant that 22 percent of all American sailors who experienced submarine operations perished -- 375 officers and 3,131 enlisted men -- the highest loss of any branch of the wartime U.S. armed forces.
The subtitle of this book is The Battle for Japan, 1944-45. Have you ever wondered what kind of peace the Japanese expected (before losing), how the battle for the Philippines unfolded, why the Japanese treated their POWs so badly, or what it is like to be in a submarine surrounded by falling depth charges?
Every year there are five or six books that just wow me. This is one of them. It is as gripping as a first-rate novel and I learned something on almost every page. Here is one review. You can buy it here.
Posted by Tyler Cowen on March 30, 2008 at 01:53 PM in Books, History | Permalink
Comments
Have you seen The Fog Of War? There are some quality moments in that film, your comments on this book remind me of them.
Posted by: Mercutio at Mar 30, 2008 2:54:23 PM
I've always wondered why, especially in modern Europe's treatment of 20th century history there is such little focus on the pacific theater and its brutality and the racial ideology of the Japanese. America's role in Asia is mostly ignored. This is why I like marginal revolution. How many "economists" are wowed by a book like this?
Posted by: a young curmudgeon at Mar 30, 2008 3:39:10 PM
Those of us who remeber that war are reluctant to read about it; but it important that the lessons are not lost.
One such lesson is about the reprocity of brutality: a phenomenon potentially amenable to economic analysis. The Nazis were far more "correct" and less brutal in their treatment of Western PoWs than were the Japanese because they regarded the Germen PoWs that the Western allies held as valuable good Germans who would serve the Reich again after the end of the war. The Japanese regarded any of their men who were taken prisoners as disgraced and valueless.
However, the Japanese treated Chinese prisoners far worse than Western ones. There apparently was some residual fear in the Japanese establishment that they would have to answer for their treatment of Westerners. That did not apply to their treatment of Chinese.
Similarly, the Nazis treated Polish and Russian prisoners much worse than Westerners. The Poles they regarded as conquered; a group that could never hold them to account. At least before Stalingrad, the Nazis apparently had no fear of having to account for their treatment of Soviet prisoners (and civilians); and their own prisoners in Soviet hands were a negligible group. When they found that they were wrong, the German resistance on the Eastern Front was fuelled by fear of retribution.
When the anlysis is done, the key question for economists is how should we try to build incentives into armed conflict that will tend to minimise brutality?
Posted by: David Heigham at Mar 30, 2008 3:49:19 PM
"what it is like to be in a submarine surrounded by falling depth charges..."
If you want to know that, I'm not sure a book is the best choice. I would instead recommend watching Wolfgang Petersen's masterpiece Das Boot instead. It doesn't take place in the pacific, but a depth charge is a depth charge.
Posted by: US at Mar 30, 2008 4:05:59 PM
"When the analysis is done, the key question for economists is how should we try to build incentives into armed conflict that will tend to minimize brutality?"
Increasing the barbarism and ugliness of war seems to me a feature not a bug.
The memories of the brutality of WW2 (on both sides) went a long way to preventing the Cold War from becoming hot - or more precisely from spilling over the boundaries of Korea, Vietnam, etc into a direct engagement of the main protagonists with the potential of worldwide holocaust.
Without getting into an argument of the merits of our current engagements, it is undeniable that the antiseptic victories of Grenada, Panama, and Gulf War 1 gave credence to the possibility, and even likelyhood, of quick and easy success in 2003.
Posted by: Kolohe at Mar 30, 2008 4:19:08 PM
The book sounds great, but I'm still about 3,756 great books behind you . . .
Sometimes I think you do this to remind us how much less more of human civilization we get enjoy . . .
Posted by: Daniel Klein at Mar 30, 2008 4:25:59 PM
I will say, as a former navigator of submarines who drives an aging car and likes me some Indian food, the posts here this weekend have been relevant to my interests.
Posted by: Kolohe at Mar 30, 2008 4:29:11 PM
David Heigham is on the mark, but I don't think he takes it quite far enough. The Nazis had good reason not worry about being called to account for their treatment of Russian POWs. After all the Soviets would throw any escaped or "rescued" Russian POW into the Gulag. Given that, why should the Nazis treat the Russians POWs any better?
Posted by: Ape Man at Mar 30, 2008 7:09:32 PM
Stalin son ran into the wall to be killed when he leaarned his father wont deal for him.According to soviet law , the realtives of soviet pows were sent to Gulag
Posted by: karl at Mar 30, 2008 8:58:57 PM
The reason Home Army insurgents in the Warsaw Uprising got to be treated as Allied POW's (and not summarily executed or shipped off to the death camps), was, if I remember correctly, due to credible threats of reprisals by the US and Britain against German POW's then held by them.
Posted by: affe at Mar 30, 2008 9:21:31 PM
I highly recommend Hastings' book Armageddon as well about the end of the war in Europe. He does an amazing job of describing both the Big Picture along with individual stories that give one the sense of the many pieces of hell scattered about Europe during the final days of the war. It's an extremely well-written book.
Posted by: John G at Mar 30, 2008 9:44:58 PM
John Dower's War Without Mercy, referenced but not named by Evan Thomas in that review, is quite good.
Posted by: Tyrone Slothrop at Mar 31, 2008 12:29:48 AM
"Every year there are five or six books that just wow me. This is one of them."
You haven't read that many books on WW2 have you? Any half way decent history of the topic can wow you just because it's such a ... insane, singular, unfathomable topic. I don't see what makes this stand out from the other million books. And anyway, as far as that goes, the War in Pacific is actually the more boring part of the whole thing.
Posted by: notsneaky at Mar 31, 2008 4:50:19 AM
Max Hastings is a fine writer, and is worthy of his subjects.
The War in the Pacific boring? Hard to consider courage, true heroism and the fight for liberty boring.
Try this interview with two US army vets of Iwo Jima at the Pritzker Military Library series:
http://www.pritzkermilitarylibrary.org/events/2006-02-23-frontandcenter.jsp
Writing as an Australian - we find the War in the Pacific quite relevant to understanding our past, and also our present day relationships with the USA and our northern neighbours.
Posted by: Bob Meade at Mar 31, 2008 5:26:56 AM
Tyler, read Neal Stephenson's Cryptonomicon. Though a novel, it touches on all the subjects youmention.
Posted by: Brutus at Mar 31, 2008 7:58:42 AM
I highly recommend Hastings' book Armageddon as well about the end of the war in Europe.
Seconded, as are his Overlord (an unsentimental account of the Normandy campaign) and Bomber Command (which manages to celebrate the airmen while criticizing their carpet bombing).
I am particularly curious as to his case on the bombing of Japan.
Posted by: Anderson at Mar 31, 2008 11:31:58 AM
"The War in the Pacific boring?"
Didn't say boring. Said, "more boring". Perhaps I should've said "less exciting/fascinating".
Posted by: notsneaky at Mar 31, 2008 2:28:52 PM
What do the commenters on this thread recommend with regard to Tooze's 'The Wages of Destruction' ?
http://www.amazon.com/Wages-Destruction-Making-Breaking-Economy/dp/B000YFE8E0/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206987170&sr=1-1
Posted by: Doug Bennett at Mar 31, 2008 2:55:46 PM
"The reason Home Army insurgents in the Warsaw Uprising got to be treated as Allied POW's (and not summarily executed or shipped off to the death camps), was, if I remember correctly, due to credible threats of reprisals by the US and Britain against German POW's then held by them."
The treatment of AK members as Allied combatants was part of the surrender agreement as negotiated between Bor and Bach-Zalewski. Certainly, before the actual surrender the Nazis did not treat captured Home Army members as POWs and did in fact summarily execute them or send them to death camps (never mind what they did to the civilians), threats of reprisals by US and Britain or not. Those threats could maybe have had something to do with the fact that the Germans did, sort of, honor the agreement subsequently (measured against typical Nazi honoring of such agreements).
Posted by: notsneaky at Mar 31, 2008 4:10:02 PM
What do the commenters on this thread recommend with regard to Tooze's 'The Wages of Destruction' ?
I just finished this last weekend. Excellent, go buy it right now. Impressive even to someone like me who's economics-challenged.
Posted by: Anderson at Mar 31, 2008 5:03:05 PM
Might I also suggest Armageddon. His treatment of the Russian-German theater is indeed grim reading and a view of the true toll of all-out war.
There is also an interview of Hastings in the Priztker Military Libraries archives that are worth listening to, though I was glum for the rest of the day after hearing it.
Posted by: ElamBend at Apr 1, 2008 1:06:08 PM
on the German submarine experience, I remember reading Iron Coffins by Herbert Werner, a former U-boat commander, when it was published (1969). I was surprised at the comment of the percentage of submariners lost. I have the image from reading that the greatest losses were from the air forces over Europe.
Posted by: Steven L. Chenault at Apr 22, 2008 11:17:15 AM
Posted by: 徵信社 at May 23, 2008 11:14:10 PM
