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Japan bleg
How expensive is it to visit Tokyo these days? I understand PPP indices and know all the tales of $200 melons and beef protectionism. But how much does the place actually cost? When I visited in 1992 I stayed in a small but comfortable business hotel, traveled by public transportation, ate sushi, and had a relatively cheap trip. Is that old mental picture of mine now a delusion? Should I instead focus my travel attention on the worst currency manipulators?
Posted by Tyler Cowen on November 18, 2007 at 01:10 PM in Travels | Permalink
Comments
Dunno, my friend went to Osaka for a week last month, spent about AUD$1000 (inclusive of airfare).
Posted by: Chewxy at Nov 18, 2007 1:41:02 PM
I'll be there on Weds, so I'll let you know what I find.
Posted by: Rue Des Quatre Vents at Nov 18, 2007 2:02:52 PM
Its not as expensive as it is made out to be. You can stay at the Tokyo dome hotel, which is fairly high class, for around 13,000 yen per night. Regular business class hotel (salaryman hotels) like the Route Inn are around 7,000 yen per night.
If you eat your meals at the sobaya and kaiten-zushi shops, you will pay around 1,000 to 1,500 yen per meal.
The real cost is domestic flight and shinkansen. For example, the flight from Tokyo to Nagasaki will cost around 50,000 yen, return. This is quite expensive compared to Southwest in the U.S. The shinkansen from Tokyo to Osaka is around 15,000 yen, one-way.
So, travel in Japan is generally not any more expensive than the U.S. Korea is about the same. The rest of Asia is quite cheap.
I made 3 three-week trips to Asia (mostly China and Taiwan) and spent around $3,000, including the flight cost.
Posted by: kurt9 at Nov 18, 2007 2:07:13 PM
Tyler why don't you give us a list of your worst currency manipulators.
Posted by: russ at Nov 18, 2007 2:35:17 PM
I think my recent trip to Japan ended up costing about US$200 per day, after airfare. That includes nice meals, transport, and some consumer goods.
Posted by: Amber at Nov 18, 2007 3:59:15 PM
All major cities have about a factor of 10 range of costs for a standard decent-level experience.
If, as you say, you use public transportation, eat local staples, and stay in mid-range domestic accomodation, you won't find it that expensive.
Go for convenience, or luxury, and the costs go up fast. E.g. transport - 15x for towncar vs taxi, food - at least 10x for hotel dining vs local place, lodgings - 3x or so for convenient location.
PPP is a little silly for anything other than a 500 calorie meal or a good night's sleep.
Posted by: gorobei at Nov 18, 2007 5:08:10 PM
Your previous experiences were not a delusion. Prices haven't changed significantly since I lived in Tokyo back in 1997. In fact, some things are actually cheaper than they were 10 years ago.
I'm going this week, and will be spending $200/nt. for hotel (I could go cheaper, but my wife likes the location and amenities of the one where we usually stay). Breakfasts will be under $5/day. Lunches will be under $20. Dinners will vary, but it's possible to eat extravagantly for less than US $50 per person. Take the train from the airport (the Keisei Skyliner is less expensive than the JR Narita Express and is the better choice if you're traveling light). Subways are reasonably inexpensive, and a daily subway pass can sometimes save you a few dollars and let you hop on and off at will.
And if you're in the Ginza area and want to bring back some sake, I recommend the Fukumitsuya Ginza 5-5-8 1F), the retail outlet for a Kanazawa sake brewer which sells tasty, attractively packaged sakes priced surprisingly low (many < US$20 per bottle).
Have fun in Tokyo!
Posted by: Bruce at Nov 18, 2007 5:39:55 PM
My spousal unit and I spent three weeks in Japan over August/September. We managed to go at a pretty optimal exchange rate, and flew on frequent flyer miles. The trip has one of the best exotic experience to dollar ratios we've ever had (and we've been to England, Scotland, France, Italy, Switzerland, Australia, New Zealand, Tahiti, etc. etc.). I strongly recommend it. Sure, if you eat in the hotel resturant and order steak, you can probably have a $250 meal. But we routinely ate great meals of don buri bowls and a beer or two for under US$10 apiece, not to mention other stuff that I can't even name. We visited Tokyo, Yokohama, Osaka, Kyoto, Hiroshima, just to name the big cities. We're still talking about it.
Article: http://coverclock.blogspot.com/2007/09/domo-arigato-mr-roboto.html
Photographs: http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnlsloan/sets/72157602031892495/
Posted by: Chip Overclock at Nov 18, 2007 5:41:31 PM
While I personally haven't noticed a any substantial change in cost in almost 20 years of visiting, I understand that economic growth is finally showing sustained traction after innumerable false starts. I expect that means prices will start rising. The prices I've seen quoted here strike me as pretty accurate. Like visiting anywhere, a lot depends on the traveler - eat in the hotel or fancy places and you pay a fortune. Eat like a local and save. No matter what, Tokyo is still cheaper than London.
Posted by: Randy (Internet Ronin) at Nov 18, 2007 7:29:02 PM
I think it's a matter whether you're a tourist, or living there. If you commute everyday without detour, shop in the local market everybody knows the best (pecuniary and else), and wait till the malls have banners screaming "After Xmas-sale SALE!!!!!!," (and, well, don't forget for being content with a smaller house in a densely packed city = cheaper to distribute utilities, and a fuel efficient K-car), you can achieve savings rate higher than some other rich uncle Sams living in a mansion built in a desert commuting with Ford SUV at 60 m/h.
In any case, tourists generally want to show off (to locals and their peers), and claim their home town is safer / more comfortable / cheaper / of better people, etc, don't they? That would be a real talking point of this famous blog, I guess.
Posted by: My_ancestors_live_here_for_more_than_1000 years_ALA_we_know at Nov 18, 2007 7:55:42 PM
I'm in Tokyo as I type this.
A Big Mac value meal at McDonald's is 580 yen. A can of Coke from a vending machine is 120 yen. You can get a motel type room at Super Hotel (Japanese equivalent of a Super 8) for 5,800 yen.
Most of the Europeans I've met think its cheap.
Everything-Everywhere.com
Posted by: Gary at Nov 18, 2007 9:08:10 PM
I spent a week in Tokyo a year and a half ago and thought the prices of things were slightly cheaper than that of my home country, Australia. There weren't many budget backpacker accomodation options in Tokyo.
Posted by: Adrian at Nov 18, 2007 9:17:12 PM
shall be there on the 29th. from bookings/arranging transport it's like way cheaper than most of Europe.
;/
Posted by: grah! at Nov 18, 2007 11:03:39 PM
In any case, tourists generally want to show off (to locals and their peers), and claim their home town is safer / more comfortable / cheaper / of better people, etc, don't they?
No, the vast majority do not.
That would be a real talking point of this famous blog, I guess.
The blog? No. Far from it. This subject? Judging by the comments, not that I can tell. IMO, the only one showing off and being holier-than-thou around here is you.
Posted by: Randy (Internet Ronin) at Nov 18, 2007 11:14:52 PM
If you're going to go from Tokyo to Kyoto, I'd suggest sticking to the Shinkansen. The trip was expensive ($130 each way if I recall) but took only two hours and was extremely comfortable. The overnight bus that a lot of cheap backpackers took lasted eight hours and cost $90 each way, so there really are no cheap domestic travel options.
Posted by: Matt Schiavenza at Nov 18, 2007 11:53:01 PM
It entirely depends on you.
Stay in a hostel (the ones I've stayed at were wonderful) and don't go out to party too much, and you should be fine. There's plenty to see and do without spending an enormous amount. Buy a JR pass.
I live in the country teaching English and used to go to Tokyo quite often last year; spent a heck of a lot of money having fun, but it was worth it. Could have just as easily not spent the money if I had different tastes, in retrospect.
Some activities that cause money hemorrhage: going to an izakaya (trendy bar that serves lots of tasty little dishes) on an empty stomach, karaoke, shopping in Ginza or around Tokyo station, not understanding the city's layout resulting in unnecessary train rides, taking a taxi anywhere, going to a revolving belt sushi place and not understanding that the plate colors indicate price.
Some activities which are good for the budget: walking around Asakusa, Ueno, or Akihabara; going to museums or zoos, eating lunch specials at classy places and being treated by a friend/eating at the convenience store at night, people watching.
If you travel outside of Tokyo, it's going to get expensive; I see no way around it. But it's worth it. JR passes are the way to go.
Posted by: Pearl Alexander at Nov 19, 2007 1:13:07 AM
I last lived in Tokyo in 1995-1996 and thought it was horrendously expensive - I came back to live here again last year and found that prices had not really changed at all. Basically, if you decide to be cost-conscious you can have a very comfortable trip and not spend too much. Izakayas are often inexpensive dinner options, and pretty much anywhere is cheap for lunch - I eat around my office and have a hard time spending more than about $10 for an excellent course lunch in a decent restaurant. But it you want to, you can spend a shocking amount of money pretty easily. The nicer hotels, which are amazing, will run you $400-700 per night, and if you want to go to a swanky dinner and some nice bars in Ginza you can easily be out $500 in one night.
Posted by: bcw210 at Nov 19, 2007 1:51:39 AM
Tyler Cowen,
I think you should focus on the cost of living for the locals, not tourists.
Posted by: Peter Schaeffer at Nov 19, 2007 1:54:20 AM
If the matter is this, I felt things became far cheaper than in those days of the Bubble Period. In those days, surely TV comedians smashed $200 melons in the small screens.
Certainly, if you want to have a Japanese gallon of milk like in the US, it would cost a fortune. But if you stick to what ordinary Japanese eat, at least there is no place for flashy tofu in the supermarkets like there was during the Bubble.
(If you must have fashionable tofu, go to the basement floors of department stores in Metropolitan Tokyo area. You can choose whatever brand of gourmet tofu you want. Of course, we do not have such items daily. In contrast, during the Bubble, even in the local supermarket, such-lookalikes could be found. Those were the days.)
Or, the garments. You may think Muji or Uni-cro is the Gap-equivalent in Japan. Wrong. In terms of pre-discount price, I found their range is closer to Target, or priciest items in Wal-Mart at least for my pay check. That’s not a bad deal.
I rather worry about the discussion started these days in Japanese media. As long as I know, there is no definitive evidence Japan finally has left behind completely the deflationary-tendency. But the news-anchors (say, in NHK, the Japanese version of BBC) often report “The horrible inflation is coming due to the higher global demand in China and India.” That’s stealth xenophobia, I guess.
Posted by: Hi at Nov 19, 2007 3:47:57 AM
I was there on business for a few days in April. Compared to London is was probably about teh same over all - somethings were more expensive and some cheaper - the hotel was much cheaper (about $200/night for the exec suite) but food seemed cheaper on the whole (even the beef). We did accidentally drink some $120 scotch but the local stuff was excellent and quite well priced.
Posted by: Clayton Nash at Nov 19, 2007 5:45:48 AM
Tyler,
I have lived in Tokyo since 2001 and prior to that from 1995-1997. Given the fact that we have had little inflation, the influx of cheap goods, deregulation, and the repeal of laws that limited retail space development, prices are not high compared to the US. My wife and I live in a two bedroom condo in central Tokyo overlooking a major park and pay 150,000 Yen a month, like $1350 at the present exchange rate. There are wonderful places to eat lunch that cost $8.50 to $20 inclusive. Dinner out can be expensive, but either the same or less than I would pay in Chicago, LA, SF, Boston, or NYC. Taxis are expensive, but the trains and buses are not. If you look at the Big Mac Index, you will see that the price is lower in Japan than the US. Of course, if you do want to buy $100 melons, you can do that, but it is not required. At the cheap end, Japan provides better value for food and accommodations and at the high end, better quality.
Posted by: Adam Markus at Nov 19, 2007 8:59:04 AM
I lived in Japan from 1993-1995, and have traveled there many times since. As suggested earlier, a business hotel will be a reasonably economical option. No services, and small rooms, but you'll just be sleeping there, right?
For breakfast, Denny's is actually a pretty good choice, with both Western (eggs, toast, salad) and Japanese breakfasts (fish, rice, etc.) for around ¥500-800. For lunch, anyplace the salarymen go will get you a full Japanese lunch (main course, rice, pickles, miso) for probably ¥800-1200. Also the shopping arcades in the basements of the major train stations (e.g., Tokyo, Shinjuku) will have a multitude of lunch choices, both Western and Japanese. For dinner I've always enjoyed wandering around the residential neighborhoods (not the various Azabus -- that area is full of expats and is expensive) and picking a place that seems to get a local crowd. You shouldn't have to pay more than ¥1500-2500 for a complete dinner.
Transportation? Definitely get the Rail Pass if you're going to have a couple of Shinkansen trips per week, plus some local trains. It covers pretty much all rail travel on JR trains except the Nozomi Shinkansen. If you're just going to be around Tokyo, don't bother -- just pay for the trains as you use them. Kodansha publishes a great Tokyo atlas that maps the whole city in sufficient detail to get where you're going, and includes a subway map and maps of the various rail systems around the city. They also print an atlas of Japan.
I hope this helps. I really love visiting Japan.
Posted by: Don K at Nov 19, 2007 11:45:04 AM
Tyler,
I am sure you are astute enough to figure this out on your own, but when someone from Europe or Australia says the price is about the same as back home, or a bit cheaper, what they are pointing out to you is that it will be expensive in US dollars.
As others have pointed out, and you no doubt also know as well, buyer beware with PPP. If you try to live like an American you will go home poor. But I am sure you of all people will want to go native and this will give you a reasonable approximation of PPP.
Posted by: happyjuggler0 at Nov 19, 2007 12:01:30 PM
To all who have traveled in japan. I am 6'5" tall I have long wondered, how are the accommodations in Japan for some one my height?
Posted by: Floccina at Nov 19, 2007 4:25:18 PM
I have just returned from Tokyo and it was no dearer than Australia or the US at all. Subway to almost any station in Tokyo was 190 yen around $2, meals were as expensive as you chose to make them eg we spent $10 at lunch but could have spent less or more like any other city.
We stayed in a very nice hotel right in Ginza so paid extra for that privilege but could have stayed at much cheaper places if we chose to.
So in the end Tokyo/Osaka we the same as home and in some instances - cheaper.
Posted by: SRV at Nov 19, 2007 7:39:44 PM
