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Discover Your Inner Ecumenicist
I loved this blog post, it is wonderful when a reader sees what you are getting at:
So how can Cowen’s approach be applied to questions of faith? ReligionWriter contends that for many people, religious observances present problems similar to those of Cowen’s art museum. We want to enjoy the experience, and it’s part our self-image to believe we find going to the church or synagogue or mosque meaningful and fulfilling. Yet who has not yawned their way through a sermon or prayer at one time or another? How do you keep your mind from wandering from the divine service to thoughts about grocery shopping later in the day or your next work assignment?
Applying Cowen’s logic, the first and probably most difficult step is admitting that we don’t always enjoy religious services and observances as much as we would like to think we do.
The conclusion?
Next time you look for a book on religious inspiration, don’t walk too quickly past the economics section.
I'll write more soon about the implicit theology in Discover Your Inner Economist.
Posted by Tyler Cowen on August 23, 2007 at 01:37 PM in Religion | Permalink
Comments
In analyzing the preferences and utilities of the worshiper, it may be dangerous to overlook the preference and utility of the Worshiped.
Posted by: caveat bettor at Aug 23, 2007 2:40:53 PM
The idea that if I think a thing is a moral good, I should also find a way to make it fun so I perform the socially beneficial amount, suggests that everything should be fun. Here's an idea: some things aren't fun, but more fundamentally, they're not supposed to be. And people should do them anyway. And that the goodness of doing them is related to the fact that they are not fun.
If you believe in something divine, it is the belief that's supposed to be important. If one expects worship of the divine to be fun, then perhaps the fundamental issue is that one doesn't believe as fervently in a god as one does, say, in their grocery shopping.
The other day you said something to the effect that you worry for charity if the only thing that recommends it is its virtuosity. I'm worried about a world in which people think that all activities they perform, even charity and other generous/moral/ethical acts, should be fun.
Posted by: Jared at Aug 23, 2007 5:00:43 PM
However, if you are not truly enjoying worship/church service or your relationship with God, then you'll be doing it for the sake of it (maybe cos you think u want to end up in heaven) and that totally defeats the purpose of religion. Although I am from the Far East and do not adhere to any form of western religion, I will not worship a certain God for the sake of salvation but I will for the simple fact that I am enjoying a relationship with Him. Thus if you are worshiping for the sake of it even if you don't enjoy, you might as well give up because you will end up in hell anyway. We are all humans and we are all subjected to our whims and mood swings, some days are just worse than others, you can't perform at your peak forever(regression to mean?) and I think that's the point Cowen is trying to make here. Btw, without taking "fun" too literally, i think people enjoy donating and helping others because it is fun to them, they find pleasure from doing those activities. i think that's what fun is..
Posted by: Eazy at Aug 23, 2007 5:20:53 PM
However, if you are not truly enjoying worship/church service or your relationship with God, then you'll be doing it for the sake of it (maybe cos you think u want to end up in heaven) and that totally defeats the purpose of religion. Although I am from the Far East and do not adhere to any form of western religion, I will not worship a certain God for the sake of salvation but I will for the simple fact that I am enjoying a relationship with Him. Thus if you are worshiping for the sake of it even if you don't enjoy, you might as well give up because you will end up in hell anyway. We are all humans and we are all subjected to our whims and mood swings, some days are just worse than others, you can't perform at your peak forever(regression to mean?) and I think that's the point Cowen is trying to make here. Btw, without taking "fun" too literally, i think people enjoy donating and helping others because it is fun to them, they find pleasure from doing those activities. i think that's what fun is..
Posted by: Eazy at Aug 23, 2007 5:21:33 PM
"it may be dangerous to overlook the preference and utility of the Worshiped."
except it's not.
Posted by: josh at Aug 23, 2007 6:48:39 PM
This is of course the fundamental problem with going to church/synagogue is that ceremony or even high pontificating isn't really fun. It makes some people feel religious, and so their conscious is soothed.
But the basic makeup of man, as it is taught generally in Christian/Judaeo circles, is that he is two parts, flesh and spirit. Dragging the flesh into a spiritual matter is akin to me discussing economics with my 5 year old. Likewise, it's difficult to think about high-minded spiritual matters when at a loud party or watching a baseball game.
More to the point, if one will step back and realize they are impossibly bored in the service they normally attend, they have to make a realistic observation: Either the spirit is not getting fed i.e. one is taking their spirit to the wrong place, or they are dragging - in a sense - only their flesh to service and thus robbing themselves of whatever spiritual experience they are presumably searching for.
The latter is seen when people are checking texts and emails during service, in the car listening to sports radio or something similar right up until service time, dragging a conversation with spouse or associate right up to the start of service, et cetera.
The first post also made a very good point as well. For something to be "good" it has to also be frolicking fun?
Posted by: Ray G at Aug 23, 2007 9:10:28 PM
This talk of fun reminds me of John Piper's "Meditations of a Christian Hedonist". His premise was that his purpose was to glorify his God BY ENJOYING Him forever, a little twist on the Westminster Catechism.
Posted by: caveat bettor at Aug 23, 2007 9:31:10 PM
Applying Cowen’s logic, the first and probably most difficult step is admitting that we don’t always enjoy religious services and observances as much as we would like to think we do.
Boy, I have to say that I didn't find that first step difficult at all. That people actually enjoy those services would explain a lot, but I'm skeptical. My experience with observant acquaintances is that if they miss services for a few weeks in a row, they may feel guilty, but they don't seem to feel like they missed out on a lot of enjoyment. (Or if they do seem to feel they missed out, I believe it's the socializing, not the hymns and sermons they've missed).
Posted by: Slocum at Aug 23, 2007 10:17:50 PM
Be thankful for the great variety of religions and methods of observances that exist in America.
Posted by: Amanda at Aug 23, 2007 10:21:12 PM
I'm sensing a straw man (or straw clown, since it's about *fun*). ReligionWriter paraphrased the idea of creating self-incentives as *making it fun*. After acknowledging that too many religious services are boring, he offered some self-incentives that don't exactly seem fun to me.
I read no requirement that a moral good be "frolicking fun", only the suggestion that making such a good less boring and more personal will increase the utility of pursuing it. The good will always be a good, and suffering is not a necessary complement.
Posted by: foxmarks at Aug 23, 2007 10:26:13 PM
...In analyzing the preferences and utilities of the worshiper, it may be
dangerous to overlook the preference and utility of the Worshiped...
Perhaps but I think the Creator is interested in our engagement. I thought
Relgion Writer gave some good, simple tips. In the Catholic thinking,
worship and sacrifice does not do anything for God's utility. It adds
nothing to God. Rather it helps us. Worship helps us become more like
the worshiped.
Posted by: Martin Kennedy at Aug 23, 2007 11:16:57 PM
How do you keep your mind from wandering from the divine service to thoughts about grocery shopping later in the day or your next work assignment?
When in my younger days I went to religious services, I never thought about grocery shopping or work assignments. But the girl in the next row? Religious writers are strange people.
Posted by: reason at Aug 24, 2007 6:01:11 AM
hey reason: Amen!
Posted by: caveat bettor at Aug 24, 2007 8:08:48 AM
Well another alternative than those proposed by ReligionWriter could be to think about the price you’d be willing to short or go long on in the indulgencies of different sins, if these were hypothetically traded in other markets than the current global warming carbon sins with their carbon emission rights.
Posted by: Per Kurowski at Aug 24, 2007 10:44:41 AM
Another way of looking at it: religious observance offers the opportunity to bond with fellow-sufferers. Fasting on Yom Kippur is not enjoyable in itself, but one can complain about the rabbi's sermon; giving up bread for matzah is not enjoyable in itself, but one can spend Pesach complaining about it (the more strictly controlled and more cardboard-like the matzah is, the better for bonding).
Posted by: Helen DeWitt at Aug 25, 2007 2:23:30 AM
Another way of looking at it: religious observance offers the opportunity to bond with fellow-sufferers. Fasting on Yom Kippur is not enjoyable in itself, but one can complain about the rabbi's sermon; giving up bread for matzah is not enjoyable in itself, but one can spend Pesach complaining about it (the more strictly controlled and more cardboard-like the matzah is, the better for bonding).
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