« Is TV good for Indian women? | Main | Interest rate fact of the day »
Advice for a private school
A loyal MR reader asks me on Facebook:
...if you were giving advice to someone setting up a private school, what would you want them to consider, or read? If you could start your own school from the ground up -- what do you think it would be most important to do?
I would say be realistic about how much parents will buy into your vision, and realize you need their support to make your school a good one. Readers, what do you think?
Posted by Tyler Cowen on August 10, 2007 at 06:01 AM in Education | Permalink
Comments
A true standards based system like Marzano and Sizer talk about. One that emphasizes work done not seat time. See http://www.reinventingschools.org/ or http://www.essentialschools.org/
I taught in a RISC school for the past two years and a CES school student teaching. I dread teaching at a traditional school in the fall but my girlfriend said we had to move, so what're ya gonna do?
For books I would read Fires in the Bathroom and The Students are Watching.
I agree with Tyler in that you have to make sure your school has a reason for existing that will get you students in the door.
Posted by: Mike Russell at Aug 10, 2007 7:01:40 AM
On the behavioral side--teach them honor. On the academic side--teach them about America (and I don't mean about "AmeriKKKa").
Posted by: David Hecht at Aug 10, 2007 7:04:47 AM
Classical liberal arts education with emphasis on appreciation of the humanities and the arts so that students have an understanding of the decisions they are making, integrated curriculum so that students are able to develop logical connections between history philosophy science and the arts, and teacher-student dialog to encourage development of thought processes and communication.
There is a charter school in downtown Indianapolis that accomplishes many of these goals- Heron High School.
http://www.herronhighschool.org/
Posted by: Stephen at Aug 10, 2007 7:25:09 AM
I think, Tyler, that your reader was looking for a "Discover your inner economist" kind of approach. Like what incentives would you use to motivate teachers, prevent grade inflation, get kids involved, and so on.
Posted by: unarmed at Aug 10, 2007 7:29:12 AM
Get money, lots and lots of money. I have been an administrator at two start up private schools and the fiscal pressure is intense.
At both schools we rented facilities at very low cost from churches that had underutilized space, collected tuition well in advance, and had a concept that was unique in its respective area- still the finances were shaky for many years though both schools are now very successful.
Of all the many businesses I've run, a private school is definitely the most difficult. You have to pay attention to all of the constituencies all the time. People's apprehension is heightened 100 times over when you are dealing with the most precious thing in their lives- their children.
As with any business, the single best thing you can do is work in a private school before you start your own private school. Whatever your vision is, people will not be confident that you can execute it unless you have more than a little relevant experience.
Building a trust relationship with parents and prospective parents will take a lot of time unless you are already have such personal relationships in the community. And that trust relationship can be destroyed instantly by one teacher doing something inappropriate with a child.
Change comes slowly in schools. When you do innovative things, parents will compare their perception of what you're doing to their own school experiences 20 years before and fight tooth and nail against most innovations. The level of parent involvement in private schools is vastly higher than in the public schools where I taught. This is both a blessing and a curse.
All said, when it works it is fantastic. It is wonderful to hear the seniors speak at graduation about what a huge impact the school has had on their lives. And it is great to visit a well-mannered classroom of fourth graders who are excited to study classical literature that most would think beyond their years.
Please realize what a long hard road it is to go from start up private school to local institution.
Posted by: Tom Kelly at Aug 10, 2007 7:58:25 AM
If I ever have children, I plan on sending them to one of the private Classical education schools. And I would definitely want to be very involved in the curriculum and other choices.
Posted by: Lori at Aug 10, 2007 8:19:26 AM
(You're on Facebook?!?)
Hi! I teach in a private school! ...but I don't run one, so listen to that Tom guy up above. That said:
Curriculum: there are a ton of valid ways to do curriculum. Look for holes in your local scene. Read up on the opposite of whatever your inclination is; if you picture a classical curriculum and school uniforms, read John Taylor Gatto, Jonathan Kozol, Sudbury Valley stuff. If you picture a free-wheeling inquiry-based ungraded etc. school, read Nation at Risk, Harold Bloom, etc. It will probably infuriate you, whichever way you go. But curriculum is too big for one mind to make a good one entirely from scratch, I think. Bring people on board who have experience in different subjects and are passionate about curriculum design. Have a mission statement which is SHORT and CONCRETE -- none of this vague buzzword stuff that people wave around, but things which have actual prescriptions for your curriculum. (For example, if you're talking about "preparing students to participate in a democracy", I'm expecting civics classes, history, maybe political science and economics, a strong student government, and probably significant community involvement. You should be able to point to specific elements of your curriculum and student experience which support your mission statement. If you're talking about "cultivating lifelong learners"...well, honestly, I have no idea what you could point to or how you could even prove success.)
Labor issues: the labor market in teaching is horribly broken and totally weird. Professional evaluation is broken and often nonexistent. There is an enormous allergy to merit pay, though it has been incorporated successfully in some cases. My ideal school would have evaluations and merit pay -- and be a lot more up-front in the interview process about pay and benefits than most places I looked at -- but if you cater to me, you might lose. Nonetheless, read Teachers Have It Easy: The Big Sacrifices and Small Salaries of America's Teachers by Moultrop et alia (part II discusses alternative compensation schemes which people have tried to implement) and Teacher Evaluation: To Enhance Professional Practice by Danielson and someone, which is basically the only book you need to run an evaluation scheme (it's intelligent and it's what people seem to base their schemes off of no matter how much else they read).
Also in terms of labor, think about what a qualified teacher looks like to you, in particular how you feel about certification (be familiar with your state's standards and what you think they do, or don't, mean) and how you feel about non-teaching experience.
Think about the population you want to serve, which will be tied into curriculum above. Despite the implicit assumption of the public school model no school is a good fit for every student. Decide up-front, as the students you can and can't serve will drive your curricular choices (and also affect your financial viability; again, look around and see what your local niches are).
Parental support is the sine qua non. Do everything you can to make sure you'll have some. Have a parents' association with a strong, but not psychotic, leader as soon as possible.
Have trustees who are smart about money. Tom Kelly is right -- running a school can be galactically expensive, and no matter how much money you have (and my school is drowning in it) you could always use more.
Get a core group of committed teachers early and involve them in generating your vision. Don't do it all alone and be ready to make concessions. Teachers will work insane hours for dumb pay if they have a vision they're passionate about.
Have administrators who communicate very well.
Realize that you cannot do everything all at once. Just as with money, there's always more you *could* be doing...A pitfall of the private school is to have lots of committees and talk things to death and issue shiny recommendations that never get implemented. Don't. Once you are off the ground (when necessarily you will be doing a million things at once), pick a small number of issues to focus on in a given year -- no more than three and that's pushing it. In fact, allot several years to each issue. And come up with *actions*, verifiable and evaluatable actions, for solving them. And make it someone's job to follow through. And when people start being upset that you aren't doing anything at all about, eg, diversity because you're so focused on, eg, curriculum, that's where you fall back on those administrators who can communicate.
Back to reading lists -- look at syllabi of teachers' ed programs and read the books that crop up most often. Most of them will probably be crap, but you need to know the state of the field, the language people are talking.
Posted by: Andromeda at Aug 10, 2007 8:52:24 AM
I would offer babysitting with high speed internet; a school for autodidacts with myself and other smart "instructors" simply discussing with individual students and groups of students what they gave learned or owould like to learn.
Posted by: joshth at Aug 10, 2007 8:53:48 AM
Read a few books written by successful investment bankers because just as with a bank, the school's most valuable assets walk out the door every day at 4:30, and most of them don't need the job. Managing in that situation is very, very different than other types of management (politics becomes vastly more important).
Perhaps a deferred compensation program based on a student's SAT/college admission/first year of college GPA would be an effective way to better align teacher's incentives with the administration (and the student's).
Posted by: nelsonal at Aug 10, 2007 8:59:49 AM
You surely know what type of education you want to spread. Talk to others who know what type of education they want spread and find out why they aren't already doing it, or better yet, why they are doing it on such a small scale.
Posted by: michael vassar at Aug 10, 2007 8:59:57 AM
What about Hansonian Angels as students? We test kids at a certain age. The we gather those kids who score in the lowest quintile. And we pick one that we secretely designate an angel. If the teachers are able to raise the angel's tests scores to some standard, then that teacher will be rewarded, say, with double their salary. Since these teachers will not know which kid is the designated angel, they will have to try to their best to make sure everyone performs well.
Posted by: Rue Des Quatre Vents at Aug 10, 2007 9:23:39 AM
Give children the desire to learn. If I was starting a new school my central mission would be to empower students at the earliest age possible to understand the benefits of a curious life. A life where people are constantly intrigued and thirst to understand the world around them to a more nuanced degree. I read an article recently about a school in New England that channels their students learning through their interests. So that if the child loved airplanes then that could take him right into basic math and through physics while maintaining a focus on the airplane. My school would operate somewhere along those lines.
Posted by: John Pertz at Aug 10, 2007 9:24:00 AM
Money. It depends what the vision for the school is, but even a school with very modest facilities is like a black hole for money, and unfortunately many passionate and talented educators are not so sound on the business side of things. In other words, if it's not you, find a great money person and enlist them immediately to work out finances. Most established private schools depend significantly on endowment income to cover regular running costs, i.e. even rather high tuition is not going to cover real expenses.
The other thing I'm keen on is values/ethos. Yes, of course, it's crucial to have talented teachers, etc. But the best schools also are fueled by an ethical rather than a strictly pedagogical vision. Obviously the two overlap, but it's worth thinking separately about the values aspect of things.
Posted by: Jenny Davidson at Aug 10, 2007 9:42:21 AM
I agree with you Tyler.
The second most important thing, I would say, would be to decide on ends before means. Before you decide whether to build a Montessori school, or a Sudbury school, or an IB school, decide what your school's aims are.
If your goal is to get your pupils into Ivy League schools, you will have much different pedagogical priorities than if it is to, say, awaken their artistic sensibilities.
The other advantage to settling this question first is that then you can do market research and solve the first problem.
Posted by: PEG at Aug 10, 2007 9:46:14 AM
Not to steer the conversation away from the question, but is the number of comments indicative of a general opinion that public education is a lost cause? I'm not scolding here; I've been away from the classroom for a year completing some graduate studies, and in the short time I've been back (I'm writing this post from my classroom; the kids aren't back for several weeks yet), my enthusiasm for being innovative is quickly being crushed by the culutre of K-12 education. As I reacquaint with colleagues, the apathy and negativity is amazing. I'm also beginning to think that the only way I'll be happy in education is if I'm in a situation where the constraints and culture of this lumbering institution don't exist.
Posted by: Jason at Aug 10, 2007 10:09:18 AM
What Tom Kelly said above. It will cost > $15K / child / year and will be financially tenuous on an operating expense level. The costs solve for the sort of parents and expectations you are dealing with. Acquiring the facilities will require typ > $10m which implies some serious benefactors, who come with their own set of expectations. The people who pull this off are in my experience incredibly motivated and competent people who deserve an awful lot of respect.
Posted by: mkl at Aug 10, 2007 10:09:35 AM
I suppose my advice isn't limited to private schools.
Content: No matter who the audience is, build the instructional materials around core content that all the instructors and supporting personnel are competent with. Use declarative objectives for students and share them completely with parents.
Process: Map your curriculum fully and engage the whole school/community in it. Tell everyone that in these classes we do (!) this week so you can build on it to do (2) next week.
Context: Don't assume a school has to be a substantially brick and mortar structure. If you are starting a new school, as an educational system, use the best communication systems you can to provide information to learners and parents. In 2007 there are a variety of online resources available, at lower cost than ever before, that provide outstanding multichannel communication. Staying with a model of single channel, unreviewable, live instruction today is not just poor practice; It's failure writ large.
Posted by: Eric at Aug 10, 2007 10:50:52 AM
Have the parent plan the roll of school administrators. Put them in charge of hiring, promoting, and rewarding teachers as well as budgetary considerations. Families willing to pay the higher cost of their time to running the school will value their child's education more. There is a commons issue here, so the size of the school matters and proximity of the parents is critical to enforcement of the parent's duties. Not all parents need to be administrators, though. A handful could play the roll of administrators, hold regular school meetings where all parents, teachers and students are invited, and require all parents to volunteer some of their time during the academic calendar to teachig or school administrative work.
There is a large literature on school-based management, some of it building off of solid progam evaluation. While a lot of this literature is written with (decentralized) public schools in mind, the results are applicable to any community-managed school. Summers and Johnson (1994) article in Review of Education Research gives a good review of evidence from school-based management in the USA.
Posted by: Niall at Aug 10, 2007 10:54:07 AM
My advice would be:
Be a non conformist and teach the students what will help them to live a better life even if it easy. For history let then watch the history channel. It is hard to imagine that some history teachers can make history boring!
Posted by: Floccina at Aug 10, 2007 11:19:23 AM
Do you add readers as friends on Facebook?
Posted by: Mike at Aug 10, 2007 11:23:33 AM
Not to seem crass, I would nonetheless pay close attention to branding and to real estate. If you ask yourself why there are not more private schools in NY and LA, where demand is insane and tuition can be raised almost without limits, these are the answers. Without an established brand, it may be hard to attract a full house for some years. This implies you'll need capital to give you staying power. And unless you are somewhere cheap (in which case demand for an expensive school may be limited), real estate is a potentially signficant constraint--and poses a barrier to entry enjoyed by longstanding private schools that got going when land was cheaper.
Posted by: Dan at Aug 10, 2007 11:45:39 AM
I also note that MR might not be the best place to ask this question. As you might note:
1) A significant number of the answers are "how to build a school that would have been perfect for me when I was a student"; but
2) MR readers are often outliers as far as learning needs are concerned -- I did not realize precisely *how far* until I started teaching. To a first approximation, we don't exist. (Explains a bit about how unpopular I was growing up.) Therefore you will not be able to get a school off the ground catering to this sort of population unless you are in an area with tremendous population density, or in the boarding school market (which has a whole other set of challenges; I teach in one myself).
So apply grains of salt where appropriate.
Posted by: Andromeda at Aug 10, 2007 12:22:58 PM
Perhaps one question you want to ask is, what advantage do you have over the free service being provided by the government. If the local schools are nightmarish holes, then this isn't too hard. If they're pretty decent public schools, then you need to have something else that makes it worth paying for--wonderful academics, religious education integrated into the whole school, radically different instructional style, etc.
Posted by: albatross at Aug 10, 2007 1:32:59 PM
To help with endowment, I would start a school as an off-shoot of some existing organization that shares my goals in education.
Posted by: Christina at Aug 10, 2007 1:37:26 PM
Find a “Tom Kelly” and an “Andromeda” and have lunch with
each of them. See if you can meet with them about twice a
year for the two or three years it will take you to figure out
more specifically what you want to do and how you will do it.
In addition to working several years at at least two schools,
spend many days sitting in the classrooms and discussing
finances and management methods of a couple dozen
schools. Both the best you can find and some near failures.
(And if you can find people who failed and are willing to talk
about it, you can learn from them too.)
By being in the room you can learn there things you cannot
learn by reading or talking. Particularly you can learn things to
avoid doing,
If you are going to handle the accounting yourself, find the
best accounting teacher and take the course. Twice if you have
to. If, after this, you don’t have the basics down cold, find
someone to help you with the finances, but still know your
balances – - every day. (Unless you are fascinated by
accounting, don’t go beyond the first year course.)
If you are not going to handle the accounting, take the course
and learn it well enough that you will clearly understand the
discussions you will have. And know your balances – every
day.
It is difficult to get useful advice and information on the art
and science of managing people. This is in part because what
works for some other people will work for you, but what works
with most other people will not work for you. And what works
for you and some of your people will not work for you and
other of your people.
(That is one of the reasons debates about management
methods are as contentious as the debates between Sachs and
Easterly on economic development.)
The most nearly universally useful work I know of is Dale
Carnegie’s “How to Win Friends and Influence People.” Read
the book. Take the course. Consider having everyone who
works for you from board members to janitors read the book
and take the course together.
Lou Gerstner’s book on his experience at IBM is useful for his
comments on the beliefs—the mission—of a business, or in
your case your school. Ignore all the stuff about computers.
(You might also try libraries or the used book sellers at
Amazon, etc. to find Thomas Watson, Junior’s books “A
Business and Its Beliefs” and “Father, Son & Co.”)
Two books by Jim Collins are “Built to Last” (with Jerry Porras) and
“Good to Great,” Collins has also done some writing on non-
profits. There are books by Peter Drucker and Tom Peters
which are also management classics. These three all disagree
with each other. Why, then, recommend them all? Because you
can find things in each that will help you (and things in each
that won’t work for you.)
Posted by: Shakespeare's Fool at Aug 10, 2007 3:28:11 PM
If our loyal reader is interested in following Shakespeare's Fool's advice (which of course I appreciate :) and is in the Boston area, I'd be happy to pass contact info along via Tyler -- I pretty much never get tired of school-founding conversations.
Posted by: Andromeda at Aug 10, 2007 4:43:04 PM
Blogger Joanne Jacobs' book "Our School" would be another good read. Note in particular that they discovered several tactical changes they needed to make after they got started.
Posted by: triticale at Aug 11, 2007 12:31:29 AM
I attended a public high school in an affluent neighbourhood of Montreal that participated in the International Baccalaureate program. School funding was often an issue. The building was old and it always felt like we were underdogs, but on standardized tests from the government, we did quite well. It was a small school where students would know one another. I think what stands out the most is that the majority of the teachers were engaging and interesting. It doesn't mean it always worked out, since we were a rowdy bunch (the teachers had a hard time). The professors I had later on in college and university were not of the same mold.
Since funding was an issue, I think parents did get involved, especially during fund raisers. Buying into the vision? I think that was pretty easy since there is a high demand to enroll at this school. But that might be a non-issue even.
If I could start a school from the ground up, I'd put a big emphasis the teachers. They can one be the best motivators a child a can get. If they can get their students curious and passionate, things flow much smoother.
Posted by: Zelnox at Aug 12, 2007 9:08:55 PM
First, realize that your competition (public schools) is offering FREE comparable service. As a former owner of a private school, I can say this was the biggest impediment to our success. Secondly, the level of personal attention and energy that will be needed to address all of the needs of all of the parents/families/students is not to be taken lightly. Your selection of a Director/Principal will be critical. Also, the politics of all of the interested parties (the board, director, staff, students and parents) will be a never ending source of frustration and energy sink.
Posted by: rick at Aug 15, 2007 12:01:08 AM
轻型货架
中型货架
重型货架
海宁货架
金华货架
永嘉货架
宁波模具架
悬臂货架
阁楼货架
工业货架
汽车4S店货架
仓储笼
苏州仓储笼
宁波仓储笼
轻型货架
无锡货架
液压搬运车
轻型货架
南通货架
轻型货架
重型货架
杭州货架
宁波货架
衢州货架
余姚货架
重型货架
无锡货架
苏州货架
合肥货架
九江货架
临安货架
常州料箱
连云港料箱
淮阴料箱
徐州料箱
盐城料箱
扬州料箱
南通钢制料箱
镇江料箱
南京料箱
无锡料箱
嘉善料箱
慈溪料箱
萧山料箱
金华料箱
绍兴料箱
宁波料箱
昆山料箱
吴江料箱
张家港料箱
江阴料箱
丹阳料箱
无锡料箱
常州料箱
淮阴料箱
徐州料箱
盐城料箱
扬州料箱
南通料箱
苏州料箱
镇江料箱
南京料箱
阁楼货架
模具货架
悬臂货架
重型货架
中型货架
轻型货架
句容货架
舟山货架
淮阴货架
南京货架
南通货架
吴江货架
山东货架
扬中货架
镇江货架
义乌货架
无锡货架
余姚货架
温州货架
绍兴货架
嘉兴货架
金华货架
宁波货架
下沙货架
杭州货架
中型货架
重型货架
江都货架
泰州货架
太仓货架
昆山货架
吴江货架
张家港货架
常熟货架
溧阳货架
金坛货架
扬中货架
丹阳货架
淮阴货架
无锡货架
常州货架
徐州货架
金华仓储笼
衢州仓储笼
萧山仓储笼
义乌仓储笼
慈溪仓储笼
诸暨仓储笼
舟山仓储笼
瑞安仓储笼
无锡仓储笼
扬州仓储笼
镇江仓储笼
江阴仓储笼
张家港仓储笼
金坛仓储笼
吴江仓储笼
南通仓储笼
镇江塑料托盘
扬州塑料托盘
无锡塑料托盘
塑料托盘
求购货架
轻型货架
中型货架
托盘货架
贯通货架
马鞍山仓储笼
宁波重型货架
杭州轻型货架
杭州中型货架
杭州重型货架
杭州悬臂架
杭州4S店货架
宁波轻型货架
宁波中型货架
永嘉仓储笼
丽水仓储笼
温州仓储笼
台州仓储笼
绍兴仓储笼
宁波仓储笼
嘉兴仓储笼
宁波仓储笼
杭州仓储笼
盐城货架
南通货架
苏州货架
镇江货架
南京货架
工业货架
轻型货架
中型货架
重型货架
悬臂货架
零配件库房货架
仓储货架
上海货架
浙江货架
角钢货架
部队货架
萧山货架
长兴货架
永嘉货架
海宁货架
富阳货架
松阳货架
龙泉货架
宁海货架
瑞安货架
兰溪货架
永康货架
温岭货架
义乌货架
金华货架
临海货架
湖州货架
绍兴货架
宁波货架
杭州货架
杭州货架
杭州货架
货架
角钢货架
轻型货架
重型货架
悬臂货架
模具货架
阁楼货架
工业货架
仓库货架
大连货架
安徽货架
部队货架
无锡货架
江西货架
江阴货架
汽车4S店货架
重型货架
仓储笼
托盘
登高车
塑料托盘
物流台车
贯通货架
轻型货架
中型货架
杭州货架
绍兴货架
金华货架
长兴货架
余姚货架
济南仓储笼
登高车
挂板架
4S店货架
堆垛架
苏州货架
南通货架
扬州货架
盐城货架
徐州货架
淮阴货架
连云港货架
常州货架
丹阳货架
金坛货架
常熟货架
无锡货架
南京货架
镇江货架
嘉兴货架
湖州货架
杭州货架
隔离网片
贯通式货架
模具货架
悬臂货架
重型货架
中型货架
轻型货架
嘉兴货架
宁波货架
绍兴货架
台州货架
温州货架
金华货架
衢州货架
余杭货架
诸暨货架
慈溪货架
瑞安货架
义乌货架
货架厂
汽车4S店货架
杭州货架
湖州货架
阁楼货架
悬臂货架
模具架
中型货架
温州货架
重型货架
仓储笼
货位式货架
重型货架
登高车
阁楼货架
轻型货架
中型货架
悬臂货架
仓库货架
轻型货架
货架
货架
物料整理架
托盘
钢托盘
货箱|料箱
物流台车
工具柜
工具车
工作台|
整理柜
手推车
仓储笼
堆垛架
登高车
置物架
搬运车
堆高车
货架
货架
南京货架
苏州货架
无锡货架
常州货架
连云港货架
淮阴货架
盐城货架
扬州货架
南通货架
昆山货架
张家港货架
宜兴货架
江阴货架
淮安货架
常熟货架
泰兴货架
货架
吴江货架
太仓货架
滨海货架
金湖货架
靖江货架
江苏货架
公司简介
公司简介
杭州货架
温州货架
宁波货架
绍兴市货架
嘉兴货架
临海货架
金华货架
台州货架
温岭货架
舟山货架|
移动式货架
滚轮式货架
悬臂货架
阁楼货架
模具货架
贯通式货架
重型货架
中型货架
轻型货架
角钢货架
货架
移动式货架
滚轮式货架
悬臂货架
阁楼货架
模具货架
贯通式货架
重型货架
中型货架
货架
Posted by: sent at Aug 15, 2007 3:10:18 AM
Interesting Article on "How To Start A School"
Hi,
Starting a private school is like nothing else you've ever done. I agree with Tom's statements about the challenges you'll face when starting a private school. I've written an article that may be of assistance entitled, "The 13 Steps To Starting Your Own School." It contains advice on how to start a private school, and much more. Because the article is over 5 pages long, I didn't want to post it here. Instead, I've put a copy on my web site so that you can download it and read it at your convenience.
To find a copy of the article on starting a school, you'll need look in the section named "Special Reports" on my web site at:
http://www.halladayeducationgroup.com
Good luck,
Doug Halladay
Halladay Education Group
604-868-0002
info@halladayeducationgroup.com
Posted by: Doug Halladay at Aug 20, 2007 1:16:54 PM
Hi Best wishes。Allow me to offer my heartiest wishes.xicao loves-流水线娱乐博客常年提供高、中、低压锅炉钢管、流体钢管、结构钢管、化肥专用钢管、石油裂化钢管、地质钢管、液压支柱钢管及合金钢管-无缝管-无缝钢管等论文发表资讯/刊物信息，协助客户制定论文发表方案
Posted by: 无缝管 at Nov 13, 2007 8:27:51 PM
Posted by: 翻译公司 at Feb 13, 2008 10:53:05 AM
