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Denmark claim of the day
"If 5% of trains are running late it is a political problem."
Here is the source, check out the readers' comments on why the Danes say they are so happy.
Posted by Tyler Cowen on May 21, 2007 at 01:51 PM in Political Science | Permalink
Comments
From the comments:
"And take a close look at the suicide rates of women aged 25-40"
I'm never quite sure why suicide rates are taken as a proxy of happiness (to me, they always suggested happiness inequality, for lack of a better term). However, I wonder if anyone can enlighten me; is female suicide a problem in Denmark?
Posted by: Robert at May 21, 2007 4:06:14 PM
International comparisons of happiness as measured by these happiness indices are always
fraught with major problems of interpretation due to cultural differences, many of which
get back to the basic reasons why there was a move to eschew interpersonal utility comparisons.
So, in some societies, people like to complain more than in others, but does that mean they
are less happy? So, according to a study by Kahneman and Krueger in JEP, tracking women on
a moment to moment basis, they find that French women are actually happier with their children
than American women, although if one asks them in general, the Ameerican ones will claim they
are happier with their children than will the French ones.
Certain nationalities are notorious for their general tendencies to complain about everything,
with the Russians an example (and who come in very low on these happiness surveys, although they
may have good reasons for being somewhat less than overjoyed). But other groups could be mentioned,
with various ethnic stereotypes and jokes as indicators.
My observation of Scandinavians is that there is a certain tendency to conformism and a certain
almost guilty sense that one should be happy. So, people say that they are, even though they
have these high alcoholism and suicide rates. Who really knows? Some of those latter problems
are apparently associated with the seasonal affect disorder happening in the long and dark winters.
But then, if they are getting all that depressed in winters, are they all that happy?
More generally, the most reliable use of these happiness surveys is in panel studies tracking
specific individual people. Then one may be able to say something meaningful. OTOH, it must
be admitted that in general life looks pretty good in Denmark on a lot of measures and stats.
Posted by: Barkley Rosser at May 21, 2007 5:29:06 PM
A general question on happiness studies - are they typically of the sort "On a scale of 1-10, 1 being the least happy and 10 being the most, how happy are you with X?" or do they set up a comparison "How much happier/less happy would you be with 25% tax rates and 50% medical coverage rather than 50% tax rates and full medical coverage?" (obviously I have no clue what the tax rate medical coverage combo is, I'm just using the numbers as an example). Basically, which would you be happier with and by how much?
I mean, if you found a happiness study that said that Mexicans in Mexico were happier than USians in the US, it would seem pretty odd given that there are a bunch of individuals in Mexico who would love to be in the US, and probably not too many people in the US who would love to move to Mexico. Without a comparison based approach no one has any idea what the individual answering the survey is using as a reference for their happiness comparison.
Posted by: AZ at May 21, 2007 6:00:14 PM
Denmark has very strict immigration rules. Countries that do not have to worry about migrants taking their jobs, altering their culture or potentially taking over somewhere down the line (ie France) are less fearful of things and more content. Homogeneous areas are usually happier and more trustful than heterogeneous places, as Robert Putnam has proven, so if it's true within a nation then it must be true between nations.
Posted by: adrian at May 21, 2007 6:15:59 PM
Re France: despite the spin, most French unhappiness is traceable to all the North African migrants swarming and pillaging the cities, not the moribund economy.
Posted by: adrian at May 21, 2007 6:22:31 PM
Ancedotal, to be sure, but it seems the residents of
Helsinki are less happy than the residents of Birmingham.
Posted by: mobile at May 21, 2007 6:23:48 PM
I think this is the most I have learned in a day from a blog about Denmark.
Posted by: alec at May 21, 2007 10:24:44 PM
The "expectations" vibe is running pretty strong, with the Papal Nuncio on working less, wanting less, spending less and the web-fame building for Stumbling on Happiness.
So what is the optimum level of desire and expectation? Can we be sure the Danes are wrong not to lust after "blinged out cribs?"
Posted by: odograph at May 21, 2007 10:39:04 PM
@ Robert: Not obviously. Maybe it's just a myth used by the Danes to keep expectations low :-) Here are some numbers on suicide rates from the WHO:
http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/
I'm not saying it's fantastic. Denmark is doing worse than both the US and the UK, but better than many other countries, for instance Austria, Finland, France and Switzerland (not to mention Eastern Europe and Japan).
By the way, should we give some countries extra credit for potential honest reporting here? For example, do we believe that suicides almost never happen in Albania? Iran? Armenia?
Posted by: N at May 22, 2007 4:05:53 AM
Danes just reply differently than the rest of the Europeans to questions. Here is some numbers from a recent survey. Main three current concerns of Europeans.
Terrorism, DK 42%, EU25 25%. Integration of foreigners, DK 28%, EU25 8%. The Cost of living, DK 2%, EU25 35%. The care of elderly, DK 30%, EU25 13%. The environment, DK 26%, EU25 13%. One would say that something different is rotten in the state of Denmark
Posted by: Mads Keller at May 22, 2007 5:24:39 AM
Regarding suicide stats, cultural factors are important here also,
especially impacting reporting. So, in some societies suicide is
considered to be honorable, e.g. Japan. In others it is a sin or even
illegal, threatening heirs from inheriting and so forth. So, in those
kinds of societies it gets covered up and seriously underreported, with
some of that going on in the US, although not as much as in some other
societies. In the Nordic societies suicide is not an honorable positive
like in Japan, but it is not treated with the coverup approach as in many
other places and hence gets pretty honestly reported. Hence, the high
suicide rates there are probably overexaggerated in relative terms, although
clearly there are plenty of suicides happening.
Posted by: Barkley Rosser at May 22, 2007 10:46:48 AM
Did anyone above make an explicit connection between the stories of dark moods in the dark winter, and suicide stats?
(I don't think comparative national happiness works as some final measure of the success of economic or political models, but I do think we can borrow bits from societies that seem successful. Or question whether our own plans truly meet our own goals. That's the tricky, fuzzy, bit.)
Posted by: odograph at May 22, 2007 11:06:42 AM
odograph,
Barkley Rosser mentioned seasonal affective disorder, if that's what you're talking about. Here's a world map.
Suicide is pure latitude. Beyond that, I wouldn't believe anything else in the numbers.
But wikipedia also claims that US suicides peak in the spring.
Posted by: Douglas Knight at May 22, 2007 11:05:37 PM
adrian
Actually most unhappiness is due to racist xenophobes invading web logs.
It escapes the notice of most such individuals that we are *all* immigrants if you dig back into it. And our kids will speak like the locals, *not* like we did back home.
Speaking as one, my neighbour (who is black as coal) is far more of a local boy, with a local accent and a loyalty to the local football club, than I am, an immigrant from a foreign country who happens to be genetically descended from the dominant ethnic group in this country.
I'm not even sure what the 'off side rule is' ;-).
You've heard of Zidane, then?
Posted by: Valuethinker at May 24, 2007 6:11:58 AM
The reason Danes are happy is because the country doesn't have obvious extremes of wealth and poverty.
No one is so much a 'winner' that it attracts envy, or so much a 'loser' that they need fear starving.
The workplace reflects that: Danish companies are very democratic, in the sense the managing director treats the floor cleaner with respect. Everyone is expected to take pride in their work- -the quality of fixtures and fittings like desks, and natural light, in the workplace is far superior to your average British company.
Psychologists have shown this. The competition for status and positional goods makes humans unhappy.
I've worked on trading floors where people made millions of pounds each. Yet they were terribly unhappy and angry, with near fist-fights at bonus time.
This trait of human beings may not be optimal for economic efficiency, but it does make for a happier society.
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