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Why do women like cads?
A loyal MR reader asks:
Explore the economics of the Tom Leykis model of human behavior: under a surprisingly broad set of conditions, women are more attracted to men who treat them poorly, don't spend money on them, etc., while nice guys finish last.
Here is a very early MR post on that topic, and another. Amber offers salacious commentary. I'll add that a lot of the so-called nice guys aren't actually nicer than average, once you get past the surface.
41 in a series of 50.
Posted by Tyler Cowen on April 11, 2007 at 06:55 AM in Science | Permalink
Comments
Your last point is often overlooked but hugely important. Very often the "nice guy" who complains about losing out under these circumstances is a whiny type with a sense of entitlement, whose self-image as an aggrieved nice guy crowds out his ability to make a real emotional connection.
(Of course, I don't mean this as anything personal against the reader who raised the question, about whom I know nothing. I'm only describing a frequent archetype.)
Posted by: Tom T. at Apr 11, 2007 8:29:47 AM
And even Hitler had a girlfriend,
Who he could always call,
That would always be there for him
In spite of all his faults
He was the worst guy ever.
reviled and despised,
Even Hitler had a girlfriend
So why can't I?
Why can't I?
-(Dr.) Frank Portman
Posted by: josh at Apr 11, 2007 8:35:51 AM
Agreed with Tom T. and the last line of TC. Nice guys are often (not always, but often) no less interested in getting laid than cads, and even no more inclined to long-term pair-bonding.
They've just been egregiously misinformed, thanks to political correctness and female-marketed mass culture, about what women actually want and will actually respond to (as opposed to what they say they want and say they will respond to).
cf. Neil Strauss's book, "The Game"
Posted by: BW at Apr 11, 2007 8:37:57 AM
Hey, that Amber chyck is hawt.
Posted by: Ted at Apr 11, 2007 8:46:08 AM
I remember many girls in the 80s were attracted to _any_ guy that drove a Firebird w/ "T-Tops". ;-)
Posted by: Chris Meisenzahl at Apr 11, 2007 8:47:12 AM
Richard Feynman had a bunch of stories about using this technique deliberately in bars to pick up women. According to him, it worked great...
Posted by: Sam Ryan at Apr 11, 2007 9:09:54 AM
Agree that "nice guys" frequently aren't, in fact many of them are scarily misogynistic once you get to know them, and total assholes if they actually do get a girlfriend.
Posted by: Jacqueline at Apr 11, 2007 9:37:41 AM
According to my better half, who married a really hot nice guy, women
like bad boys because 1) they want to live dangerously for a while, and 2) they then
want to mother the bad boy into become a nice guy. This almost always fails,
and results in booming business for domestic violence shelters.
My wife is very smart, and she did marry me, which proves it I believe.
Posted by: save_the-rustbelt at Apr 11, 2007 9:48:14 AM
Very, very amusing.
Posted by: Xanthippas at Apr 11, 2007 10:44:33 AM
yeah, I agree that the "nice guy" stereotype is often someone with many deficiencies. There is one thing I'm curious about though, raised by a commentator on Amanda's site: why is it that some girls go for ugly, bad guys? I understand the bad guy part...does the thrill of that just cover over the unattractiveness?
Posted by: G at Apr 11, 2007 11:19:03 AM
I will also point out that the "nice guy" stereotype has many deficiencies. Another factor to consider is confidence. I would argue to be a "bad boy" you have to be confident in what you want and how you live your life. While living dangerously and the desire to change/mother the "bad boy" certainly are factors, I think confidence is factor often overlooked. There a plenty of genuine nice guys who have no problems with women because of the confidence factor. The so called "nice guy" seems to me to be more of a p*ssy then actual nice guy. I will also echo the "scarily misogynistic" attribute (probably stems from years of rejection because they are cowards and feel entitled; yes I am dealing with generalizations.) I will also say that BW has a point as well. This was an interesting post to say the least.
Regards,
TDL
Posted by: TDL at Apr 11, 2007 11:42:30 AM
Even "cads" almost always have to be nice to women in order to get laid. If you read any website or book by "seduction experts", you'll find them advising men to express interest in women's lives, form a personal connection with women, and complement women (wehn appropriate). The iconic "jerk" who excites women by teasing them is almost certainly forming a positive relationship with women who (possibly secretly) enjoy teasing. The notion that the "nice guy finishes last" is wrong. But men who think that being "nice" entails never expressing their sexual desire to women probably finish last, simply because they hold themselves back more than they need to.
Any man who goes around thinking he has to be a jerk to get women is doing neither himself nor women a favor...
Posted by: Mr. Noah at Apr 11, 2007 11:52:45 AM
Another thought:
Thanks to birth control, cad-hood (male promiscuity), while still fun for many, is no longer a very effective strategy for spreading male genes (at least, not in countries like the U.S. where birth control is common). Extramarital affairs and casual premarital sex are no longer likely to result in conception.
This means that most children are now children of "dads".
Does this mean that "cad" genes will be slowly shoved out of the gene pool by the Pill?
Posted by: Mr. Noah at Apr 11, 2007 11:59:40 AM
My impression of most "nice guys" are that they are whiny and full of self-pity. I find it difficult to believe that any woman could be attracted to such guys.
Posted by: Kurt9 at Apr 11, 2007 12:30:42 PM
In this cliche, "nice guys" most certainly refeers to "wussy guys with no confidence." One of the key components to a man sparking attraction within a woman is her relative precieved value to the man's. A wussy, "nice guy," will finish last because he indicates that he respects the woman more than himself. This destroys attraction on a hard-wired level. Think about it in an evolutionary sense-- why would a woman mate with a man weaker than herself?
Posted by: DNH at Apr 11, 2007 12:39:37 PM
"But men who think that being "nice" entails never expressing their sexual desire to women probably finish last, simply because they hold themselves back more than they need to."
Bingo.
As a former "nice guy," I can attest that we were placed under the impression that we were to never, ever express sexual interest in a girl directly to her, as that was "creepy," "wrong," and "perverted."
Posted by: Robert at Apr 11, 2007 1:00:54 PM
under a surprisingly broad set of conditions, women are more attracted to men who treat them poorly
This is misogynistic nerd folklore. Women are not, in fact, attracted to men who "treat them poorly" anymore than men are attracted to women who treat them poorly.
Research from social psychology and evolutionary psychology show women are attracted by the personality trait dominance (leadership), and both men and women are attracted by the personality trait agreeableness. (the opposite of jerkyness)
Some women look for short term sexual partners; these women do not choose men that "treat them poorly", but male partners that - surprise! - are also looking for short term sexual partners.
Posted by: Jason Malloy at Apr 11, 2007 1:51:14 PM
I was going to make a comment, but the last 7 or 8, above, pretty much nail it to the wall that I have nothing to add.
Posted by: Yancey Ward at Apr 11, 2007 2:09:07 PM
In general women tend to like confidence, healthy physiques, money, power, ambition, and well socialized extroverts. However, among that general framework, women are largely idiosyncratic and unpredictable in their preferences and can almost never accurately articulate what they want until they see it.
Women also put a huge emphasis on natural and convenient meeting conditions which gives bartenders, yoga teachers, and anyone in a classroom type environment large advantages.
Overall, women have erratic, confusing, and often intentionally misleading mate selection criteria and that can frustrate men to no end. However, no one likes hearing the losers complain about it regardless of whether the situation is fair or not.
Posted by: Giovanni at Apr 11, 2007 2:10:10 PM
I'm more interested in the question Why do women like cats?
Posted by: dbadba at Apr 11, 2007 2:18:39 PM
As a former "nice guy," I can attest that we were placed under the impression that we were to never, ever express sexual interest in a girl directly to her, as that was "creepy," "wrong," and "perverted."
Well, I think that impression is natural for guys with little sexual experience. I mean, before you have sex with a few women, you don't really know they'll like it. So trying to get them in bed seems a little like trying to take something from them...until you do it a few times, and realize they like it too. :-)
But as for macho guys who slap girls' asses or whatever, well maybe that crap works in high school, but those guys learn pretty quick to cut it out if they intend to get laid past age 18...except in Japan, where company drinking excursions to "hostess bars" allow men to maintain ass-slapping jerkitude into their 50s...but that is a story for another day. ;-)
Posted by: Mr. Noah at Apr 11, 2007 3:11:01 PM
The Heartless Bitches site covers the "nice guy" myth very well in some essays that say pretty much what is already above.
Self proclaimed "nice guys" are pathetic twerps who lost, whine loudly, are full of excuses, and play the blame game rather than suck it up and take ownership of the challenge.
Posted by: T.W at Apr 11, 2007 3:27:24 PM
As a former "nice guy," I can attest that we were placed under the impression that we were to never, ever express sexual interest in a girl directly to her, as that was "creepy," "wrong," and "perverted."
Um, it *is* creepy, wrong, and perverted ... if and only if the woman doesn't like you in the first place. See: literally every sexual harassment lawsuit or harassment arrest.
That creates a problem for the risk-averse, you see.
Posted by: Person at Apr 11, 2007 3:30:02 PM
I think that the question is posed incorrectly. It is not that women are especially attracted to cads, but rather it is that high-value men have no reason to be nice to women, because they are assured of a steady supply. This creates a self-reinforcing loop where men who are nice to women are automatically labeled as losers, because winners do not need to be nice.
Posted by: djg at Apr 11, 2007 3:56:48 PM
Self proclaimed "nice guys" are pathetic twerps who lost, whine loudly, are full of excuses, and play the blame game rather than suck it up and take ownership of the challenge.
And cads would do exactly the same thing had they "lost".
Still doesn't get us anywhere in terms of the mystery.
Posted by: Person at Apr 11, 2007 4:23:06 PM
