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Why do women like cads?
A loyal MR reader asks:
Explore the economics of the Tom Leykis model of human behavior: under a surprisingly broad set of conditions, women are more attracted to men who treat them poorly, don't spend money on them, etc., while nice guys finish last.
Here is a very early MR post on that topic, and another. Amber offers salacious commentary. I'll add that a lot of the so-called nice guys aren't actually nicer than average, once you get past the surface.
41 in a series of 50.
Posted by Tyler Cowen on April 11, 2007 at 06:55 AM in Science | Permalink
Comments
Your last point is often overlooked but hugely important. Very often the "nice guy" who complains about losing out under these circumstances is a whiny type with a sense of entitlement, whose self-image as an aggrieved nice guy crowds out his ability to make a real emotional connection.
(Of course, I don't mean this as anything personal against the reader who raised the question, about whom I know nothing. I'm only describing a frequent archetype.)
Posted by: Tom T. at Apr 11, 2007 8:29:47 AM
And even Hitler had a girlfriend,
Who he could always call,
That would always be there for him
In spite of all his faults
He was the worst guy ever.
reviled and despised,
Even Hitler had a girlfriend
So why can't I?
Why can't I?
-(Dr.) Frank Portman
Posted by: josh at Apr 11, 2007 8:35:51 AM
Agreed with Tom T. and the last line of TC. Nice guys are often (not always, but often) no less interested in getting laid than cads, and even no more inclined to long-term pair-bonding.
They've just been egregiously misinformed, thanks to political correctness and female-marketed mass culture, about what women actually want and will actually respond to (as opposed to what they say they want and say they will respond to).
cf. Neil Strauss's book, "The Game"
Posted by: BW at Apr 11, 2007 8:37:57 AM
Hey, that Amber chyck is hawt.
Posted by: Ted at Apr 11, 2007 8:46:08 AM
I remember many girls in the 80s were attracted to _any_ guy that drove a Firebird w/ "T-Tops". ;-)
Posted by: Chris Meisenzahl at Apr 11, 2007 8:47:12 AM
Richard Feynman had a bunch of stories about using this technique deliberately in bars to pick up women. According to him, it worked great...
Posted by: Sam Ryan at Apr 11, 2007 9:09:54 AM
Agree that "nice guys" frequently aren't, in fact many of them are scarily misogynistic once you get to know them, and total assholes if they actually do get a girlfriend.
Posted by: Jacqueline at Apr 11, 2007 9:37:41 AM
According to my better half, who married a really hot nice guy, women
like bad boys because 1) they want to live dangerously for a while, and 2) they then
want to mother the bad boy into become a nice guy. This almost always fails,
and results in booming business for domestic violence shelters.
My wife is very smart, and she did marry me, which proves it I believe.
Posted by: save_the-rustbelt at Apr 11, 2007 9:48:14 AM
Very, very amusing.
Posted by: Xanthippas at Apr 11, 2007 10:44:33 AM
yeah, I agree that the "nice guy" stereotype is often someone with many deficiencies. There is one thing I'm curious about though, raised by a commentator on Amanda's site: why is it that some girls go for ugly, bad guys? I understand the bad guy part...does the thrill of that just cover over the unattractiveness?
Posted by: G at Apr 11, 2007 11:19:03 AM
I will also point out that the "nice guy" stereotype has many deficiencies. Another factor to consider is confidence. I would argue to be a "bad boy" you have to be confident in what you want and how you live your life. While living dangerously and the desire to change/mother the "bad boy" certainly are factors, I think confidence is factor often overlooked. There a plenty of genuine nice guys who have no problems with women because of the confidence factor. The so called "nice guy" seems to me to be more of a p*ssy then actual nice guy. I will also echo the "scarily misogynistic" attribute (probably stems from years of rejection because they are cowards and feel entitled; yes I am dealing with generalizations.) I will also say that BW has a point as well. This was an interesting post to say the least.
Regards,
TDL
Posted by: TDL at Apr 11, 2007 11:42:30 AM
Even "cads" almost always have to be nice to women in order to get laid. If you read any website or book by "seduction experts", you'll find them advising men to express interest in women's lives, form a personal connection with women, and complement women (wehn appropriate). The iconic "jerk" who excites women by teasing them is almost certainly forming a positive relationship with women who (possibly secretly) enjoy teasing. The notion that the "nice guy finishes last" is wrong. But men who think that being "nice" entails never expressing their sexual desire to women probably finish last, simply because they hold themselves back more than they need to.
Any man who goes around thinking he has to be a jerk to get women is doing neither himself nor women a favor...
Posted by: Mr. Noah at Apr 11, 2007 11:52:45 AM
Another thought:
Thanks to birth control, cad-hood (male promiscuity), while still fun for many, is no longer a very effective strategy for spreading male genes (at least, not in countries like the U.S. where birth control is common). Extramarital affairs and casual premarital sex are no longer likely to result in conception.
This means that most children are now children of "dads".
Does this mean that "cad" genes will be slowly shoved out of the gene pool by the Pill?
Posted by: Mr. Noah at Apr 11, 2007 11:59:40 AM
My impression of most "nice guys" are that they are whiny and full of self-pity. I find it difficult to believe that any woman could be attracted to such guys.
Posted by: Kurt9 at Apr 11, 2007 12:30:42 PM
In this cliche, "nice guys" most certainly refeers to "wussy guys with no confidence." One of the key components to a man sparking attraction within a woman is her relative precieved value to the man's. A wussy, "nice guy," will finish last because he indicates that he respects the woman more than himself. This destroys attraction on a hard-wired level. Think about it in an evolutionary sense-- why would a woman mate with a man weaker than herself?
Posted by: DNH at Apr 11, 2007 12:39:37 PM
"But men who think that being "nice" entails never expressing their sexual desire to women probably finish last, simply because they hold themselves back more than they need to."
Bingo.
As a former "nice guy," I can attest that we were placed under the impression that we were to never, ever express sexual interest in a girl directly to her, as that was "creepy," "wrong," and "perverted."
Posted by: Robert at Apr 11, 2007 1:00:54 PM
under a surprisingly broad set of conditions, women are more attracted to men who treat them poorly
This is misogynistic nerd folklore. Women are not, in fact, attracted to men who "treat them poorly" anymore than men are attracted to women who treat them poorly.
Research from social psychology and evolutionary psychology show women are attracted by the personality trait dominance (leadership), and both men and women are attracted by the personality trait agreeableness. (the opposite of jerkyness)
Some women look for short term sexual partners; these women do not choose men that "treat them poorly", but male partners that - surprise! - are also looking for short term sexual partners.
Posted by: Jason Malloy at Apr 11, 2007 1:51:14 PM
I was going to make a comment, but the last 7 or 8, above, pretty much nail it to the wall that I have nothing to add.
Posted by: Yancey Ward at Apr 11, 2007 2:09:07 PM
In general women tend to like confidence, healthy physiques, money, power, ambition, and well socialized extroverts. However, among that general framework, women are largely idiosyncratic and unpredictable in their preferences and can almost never accurately articulate what they want until they see it.
Women also put a huge emphasis on natural and convenient meeting conditions which gives bartenders, yoga teachers, and anyone in a classroom type environment large advantages.
Overall, women have erratic, confusing, and often intentionally misleading mate selection criteria and that can frustrate men to no end. However, no one likes hearing the losers complain about it regardless of whether the situation is fair or not.
Posted by: Giovanni at Apr 11, 2007 2:10:10 PM
I'm more interested in the question Why do women like cats?
Posted by: dbadba at Apr 11, 2007 2:18:39 PM
As a former "nice guy," I can attest that we were placed under the impression that we were to never, ever express sexual interest in a girl directly to her, as that was "creepy," "wrong," and "perverted."
Well, I think that impression is natural for guys with little sexual experience. I mean, before you have sex with a few women, you don't really know they'll like it. So trying to get them in bed seems a little like trying to take something from them...until you do it a few times, and realize they like it too. :-)
But as for macho guys who slap girls' asses or whatever, well maybe that crap works in high school, but those guys learn pretty quick to cut it out if they intend to get laid past age 18...except in Japan, where company drinking excursions to "hostess bars" allow men to maintain ass-slapping jerkitude into their 50s...but that is a story for another day. ;-)
Posted by: Mr. Noah at Apr 11, 2007 3:11:01 PM
The Heartless Bitches site covers the "nice guy" myth very well in some essays that say pretty much what is already above.
Self proclaimed "nice guys" are pathetic twerps who lost, whine loudly, are full of excuses, and play the blame game rather than suck it up and take ownership of the challenge.
Posted by: T.W at Apr 11, 2007 3:27:24 PM
As a former "nice guy," I can attest that we were placed under the impression that we were to never, ever express sexual interest in a girl directly to her, as that was "creepy," "wrong," and "perverted."
Um, it *is* creepy, wrong, and perverted ... if and only if the woman doesn't like you in the first place. See: literally every sexual harassment lawsuit or harassment arrest.
That creates a problem for the risk-averse, you see.
Posted by: Person at Apr 11, 2007 3:30:02 PM
I think that the question is posed incorrectly. It is not that women are especially attracted to cads, but rather it is that high-value men have no reason to be nice to women, because they are assured of a steady supply. This creates a self-reinforcing loop where men who are nice to women are automatically labeled as losers, because winners do not need to be nice.
Posted by: djg at Apr 11, 2007 3:56:48 PM
Self proclaimed "nice guys" are pathetic twerps who lost, whine loudly, are full of excuses, and play the blame game rather than suck it up and take ownership of the challenge.
And cads would do exactly the same thing had they "lost".
Still doesn't get us anywhere in terms of the mystery.
Posted by: Person at Apr 11, 2007 4:23:06 PM
Women who seek out short term sexual relationships, just like men who seek out sex, are looking primarily for sex. By definition. They choose appearance traits over personality/moral traits just as men do.
Women do not prefer jerks, and they are not more crazy than men. In fact dating people for appearance over/despite personality is more typical of male mating behavior.
That said men are much more antisocial than women, they are much more likely to commit crime and use/victimize others. (a certain amount of criminal behavior during adolescence is actually normative for males!) Antisocial men are also much more likely to pursue a mating strategy. Rapists and criminals have more sexual partners than average. Ironically number of sexual partners predicts male negative opinion/attitudes towards women.
So women that weight appearance over personality for short-term mating are going to end up getting much more despicable matches, on average, than men that weight appearance over personality for short-term mating, because, frankly, men are much more selfish and dangerous people.
Posted by: Jason Malloy at Apr 11, 2007 4:47:47 PM
I think a better question than "why do women like cads?" is why do women like fat guys with lower IQ's than they have? If instead of viewing a guy as fat you view him as big, you might be able to explain that in terms of perceived security. On the IQ question, the best answer I can come up with from talking to women is that it's a control issue. Or perhaps it's just due to the fact that male IQs tend to be more widely distributed about the mean that female IQs.
Or perhaps since most men are fatter and/or have a lower IQ than I do makes my conclusions erroneous and the question pointless.
Posted by: Matt H at Apr 11, 2007 4:48:56 PM
Self proclaimed "nice guys" are pathetic twerps who lost, whine loudly, are full of excuses, and play the blame game rather than suck it up and take ownership of the challenge.
Do I detect a little bit of aggression here? ;-)
I don't know what "lost" means in a sexual contest. Not able to get the girl you want? Sure, happens all the time. Not able to get five girls a week? Well, not everyone can be George Clooney. But I think there's few men out there who just can't get laid at all for a long period of time, and if there are, it's probably because of an emotional or physical problem...
I think it's stupid to think of sexual relations in terms of winners and losers, just like it's stupid to think of jobs in terms of winners and losers. So you're a construction worker and someone else is a CEO. Well, did you try to be a CEO?
Posted by: Mr. Noah at Apr 11, 2007 5:39:42 PM
shy guys finish last.
There... fixed.
In our circle of friends, most of the girls are ga-ga for any sort of normal guy who exhibits the following traits:
1. Isn't shy.
2. Doesn't pursue everything in a skirt.
3. Isn't a jerk.
4. Isn't poor to the point of being nearly homeless.
5. and - this can't really be bargained with too much - isn't more than 15 pounds overweight.
Ugly is almost always something that, as a guy, you can address. What is attractive to a woman, in terms of a guys face or even style (to a lessor degree), I think is very subjective. Just be in decent shape with a little bit of color to your skin and wear modern attire - and you'll catch the eye of many women. How willing they are to date you or sleep with you probably depends on the 5 factors listed above.
Not that I'm any expert, but that's what I've learned about what women want. It varies slightly from woman to woman, and some demand more, but I think for most girls, this is a decent starting out point.
Posted by: Andy at Apr 11, 2007 5:50:53 PM
Self proclaimed "nice guys" are pathetic twerps who lost, whine loudly, are full of excuses, and play the blame game rather than suck it up and take ownership of the challenge.
cf. Nietzsche's Genealogy of Morals.
Posted by: Jason Ruspini at Apr 11, 2007 5:54:03 PM
Oh... and to stay on subject, having said all that if they can't find someone who fits all 5 criteria, most will just find someone who fits #1 and #5.
Why?
I think it's probably because for most women, attention and self-perception are their two most biggest needs. So being with a good looking guy who shows her attention, even negative attention, address those needs.
Posted by: Andy at Apr 11, 2007 5:55:31 PM
Ugh... edit...
I think it's probably because for most women, attention and self-perception are their biggest needs. So being with a good looking guy who shows her attention, even negative attention, address those needs.
Posted by: Andy at Apr 11, 2007 5:58:03 PM
Women are not, in fact, attracted to men who "treat them poorly" anymore than men are attracted to women who treat them poorly.
Both populations are significantly non-zero, even among people looking for (or in) long-term relationships.
5. and - this can't really be bargained with too much - isn't more than 15 pounds overweight.
Utterly untrue. It might be accurate to say that women aren't usually attracted to men significantly more overweight than themselves, but I'm not even sure of that. Overweight offsets some level of confidence, etc., but hugely fat, hugely confident guys don't have much trouble getting women, just skinny women. For a woman who isn't model-sized, statement 5 might begin to be accurate at 50 lbs, not 15.
Posted by: Anthony at Apr 11, 2007 7:20:46 PM
I'll concede that point to you Anthony. What I meant was more along the lines of 'women aren't usually attracted to men significantly more overweight than themselves' - as you point out.
It was more just to set up the idea that 'ugly' as it relates to guys is more about his weight than anything else. At least as far as physical appearance goes.
Unless you're Steve Buscemi.
Posted by: Andy at Apr 11, 2007 7:45:27 PM
Could it be the feeling of danger triggering more dopamine into a woman's brain?
Posted by: Yan Li at Apr 11, 2007 7:47:16 PM
and - this can't really be bargained with too much - isn't more than 15 pounds overweight.
Actually some research indicates that fat simply doesn't affect male mating success. Some research even shows fat is associated with higher male wages while being skinny can hurt income. Perhaps fat, like height (associated with mating and wage success), increases perceptions of male dominance or presence, offsetting any visual unpleasantness.
Possibly related: A study by Randy Thornhill found that BMI of male partner was positively associated with female orgasm frequency.
Posted by: Jason Malloy at Apr 11, 2007 8:02:00 PM
The answer is simple in its premise, but complex in its execution:
Power.
The same impulse that kept Hussein in power in Iraq... no matter how much of a jerk he is to you, he's keeping the wolf from the door. I believe the phrase is:"Better the devil you know..."
Once again biology trumps rational thought - the biggest, toughest caveman gets the best girls because he can protect the females and the offspring he has with those females from other males. Just go "Google" the mating habits of lions if you want to know more about how that works...
"Cognito ergo sum" my rear end; I have yet to see any "cognito" that wasn't related to biology in some way.
That's my 2 cents...
Posted by: Bubba at Apr 11, 2007 10:08:42 PM
I find it ironic that no women have posted on this comment section as of 8PM
Posted by: Neal at Apr 11, 2007 10:54:21 PM
This video explains it all:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2143915578134513037&q=sexual+harassment
Posted by: Doug at Apr 12, 2007 1:54:57 PM
Neal: Your implied hypothesis about Jacqueline Passey is fascinating (and certainly sheds light on her relationship woes).
Posted by: Andromeda at Apr 12, 2007 7:20:26 PM
Ouch, Tyler cast aspersions on my nice guy credentials. Is this the type of cadish behavior I should emulate? I have already followed his other advice to take control of my romantic destiny.
Posted by: mobile at Apr 13, 2007 2:36:06 AM
Once again biology trumps rational thought - the biggest, toughest caveman gets the best girls because he can protect the females and the offspring he has with those females from other males.
I'm sorry I don't have time to offer an illustrative quote, but if you read The Mating Mind by Geoffrey Miller you should find that your view of "biology" has a lot of your culture in it and perhaps not that much biology.
Posted by: Noumenon at Apr 13, 2007 9:10:57 AM
They say that men and women do not turn up at speed-dating events hoping to meet a certain "type" but judge each potential partner relative to others at the event. Thus, a man of average height will find that he makes a big impression with the women if his male rivals are all short.Malloy's link is for a study done with a small population of people doing speed dating in the UK. The general drift, at least for the rendition presented there, is that in a speed dating situation one gets evaluated more relative to the competition in the room than on an some absolute scale.
While interesting, it's just not relevant to this post -- this is one of those times where an absolute value is more useful in making an assessment than a relative value.
Posted by: agm at Apr 14, 2007 7:30:24 AM
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Posted by: woshiwo at Dec 3, 2007 1:31:28 AM
I dunno what a cad is but I've been that nice guy and I am now a CAD!! Out of the shear need to get laid on a somewhat regular basis, I have learned to talk to women, make small talk and I've gotten to the point where I can talk a pastor out of her panties on a Sunday morning. DONE IT!! Holy &%**$ is the best &%**$!! It is quite a challenge, but it is SO worth it!! It is sometimes difficult as you often feel like you are forcing yourself on her? You approach her, you start undressing her, she says no, you laugh and keep going. . . I find that I am often with this perception. So we always dialogue afterwards when she tells me how good it was but that she feels guilty that she has fornicated before her god. But WHATEVER! I got mine and she got hers. If she wants to feel bad so be it!!
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Posted by: 謝文豪 at Apr 2, 2008 3:08:18 AM
Posted by: masinn at Aug 28, 2008 6:12:19 AM
