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Tom Palmer on positive and negative liberty
He is responding to my Cato podcast, see also Will Wilkinson's post...
My view, simply put, is that "Libertarian Liberty" (to be specific with the terminology) is for the most part an instrumental value subordinate to the enhancement of positive capabilities. When the two conflict, I opt for the capabilities, and in that sense I admire the philosophical premises of many contemporary American liberals. I also believe in a governmental safety net, unlike many of the people at Cato, and partly for this reason.
On the other hand, I favor zero taxation of capital income, deregulation of the medical sector, cuts in government spending, no special privileges for labor unions, and I reject the philosophy of egalitarianism. So I'm not quite ready to be writing for The American Prospect and competing down the wages of Matt and Ezra.
Posted by Tyler Cowen on March 22, 2007 at 08:14 PM in Philosophy | Permalink
Comments
Tyler,
Do you think that positive liberty is lexically prior to negative liberty? Does positive liberty always win in a fight?
An interesting question: What set of negative liberties maximize positive liberty? An interesting project for libertarian philosophers and economists would be to show that a rather expansize set of negative liberties maximizes positive liberty.
The best world to live in would be one where you could have both at once.
Here's another problem: Put negative liberty on one axis and positive liberty on another. Assume some crude trade-off rate between the two. Find the maximum on the curve. What institutions produce the maximum?
Could there be a trade-off rate? What would that be? What's a reasonable trade-off rule? How can you quantify either kind of liberty?
Posted by: The Garbageman at Mar 23, 2007 12:52:42 AM
Many years ago I attended a Liberty Fund seminar on Hayek, Pope Leo IX, and "social justice". It became clear to me after two days that most of my co-participants had little interest in acknowledging that Hayek, like Tyler Cowen, favoured a social safety net. The only questions that were left in my mind after the weekend of discussion were (1) who should provide it, (2) how should it be provided, and (3) how high should it be.
I honestly do not see any way not to involve gubmnt in the provision of some minimal social safety net; there are just too many free riders to leave it all to private charity. At the same time, the incentive effects and rules of the game, Tyler's (a) and (b), are important considerations in structuring the answers to the questions of "how" and "how high" when we address social safety net issues.
Posted by: EclectEcon at Mar 23, 2007 7:09:49 AM
there is only one kind of liberty, the liberty of tao, that is to flow without interfering with the way of nature. the libertarians don't like liberty. what they like is vanity, money, control and power.
Posted by: cosme at Mar 23, 2007 7:10:56 AM
"Libertarian Liberty" (to be specific with the terminology) is for the most part an instrumental value subordinate to the enhancement of positive capabilities."
I can't believe people can write such gobbledygook and think other people will understand or be impressed by it. What does such a piece of blather mean?
Posted by: Robert Speirs at Mar 23, 2007 8:51:23 AM
An "instrumental" value is one you only value for how useful it is, not for its innate awesomeness. Like the difference between a priest who values religion for itself, and a monarch who values religion for keeping his people in line. The rest is saying he'd rather have the freedom to fly than the freedom to not have the airlines tell him when he can board.
Posted by: Noumenon at Mar 23, 2007 9:29:07 AM
Tyler, I am glad to see the move from "positive liberty" to "positive capabilities."
RE Tom's podcast: Yes, hearing Tom's splendid voice and thoughts makes me happier, richer, not freer. There is just one thing, Tom: While I think it important to hold a line against the expression "positive liberty," I do not feel the same about "positive rights," and you seemed to. I don't have a problem with calling rights to services from the government "positive rights." Thus, in an intellectual discussion, one might call a spot in the school for your kid might be called a "positive right." Government is a unique and exceptional player, and using that focal uniqueness in formulating terms is reasonable.
My attitude about "rights" is very tolerant, I am willing to let almost anything through when it comes to that term, though it is good to clarify "in this or that sense."
Tyler, thanks for the exchange and featuring Tom's criticism.
Posted by: Daniel Klein at Mar 23, 2007 10:54:15 AM
Robert,
I can't believe people can write such gobbledygook and think other people will understand or be impressed by it. What does such a piece of blather mean?
Try listening to the first few minutes of the podcast that is the subject of this post. Tyler has even provided you with a link to the relevant audio file, which you'll find just by clicking on the word 'responding' above.
Posted by: Pablo Stafforini at Mar 23, 2007 11:02:21 AM
This debate is quite confused. From what I can tell, Tyler is not advocating positive liberty. Most current thinkers (Carter, Kramer) would put his views in the negative liberty camp.
Palmer's argument seems to be based on the notion that liberty increases wealth which increases options and is thus a good thing. This is not a philosophical but an empirical argument and it isn't obviously true as stated. Certain liberties seem to correlate well with wealth generation but not all of them and not for all people. The wealthier US states are not those with the least state intervention and the Nordics are the richest European states and they have the most state intervention.
It's not clear what Palmer's end game is either. Does he value wealth for itself, wealth for the extent to which it generates options or meaningful options or is this all based on a concept of property rights. If the last one he's on crack. I know of no-one who can justify a system of justice based on private property rights. Nozick uncontroversially couldn't.
Posted by: jdsm at Mar 23, 2007 1:15:35 PM
Tom Palmer nails it. Positive liberty means the choices enabled by wealth, and growth in wealth has been simply dazzling.
But Tocqueville posed the question in 1840: will people in the age of democracy maintain freedom (a choice that entails a great deal of effort with no immediate dividend) or give in to the democratic despotism that substitutes the satisfactions of wealth for "the trouble of living and breathing."
Tyler's answer seems to be, the people have chosen wealth or positive liberty, and there is no reason to think they will change their minds.
This is not a recent phenomenon -- the people have pretty much been making this same choice at every step since Tocqueville wrote. In fact, Tocqueville goes back a century and says the French went that way long before their revolution.
What Tocqueville considered an open question and a challenge for the age of democracy is no longer open.
A melancholy prospect, no?
Posted by: Kent Guida at Mar 23, 2007 5:03:33 PM
There is a very good reasons that classical liberal and libertarian thinkers have defined freedom as negative liberty: positive liberty can be easily manipulated and defined broadly and justify all kinds of coercion. This was already done by Marxists and the same mistake will continue to be repeated until we learn our lesson. It is bad enough that Tyler has given up on libertarianism ending the welfare state (right when the world is beginning to understand the value of small government, since the fall of communism) but now he wants to hand over the sacred principles which have defined the American government - inalienable rights and negative liberty - freedom from coercion.
For the Marxist defense of positive liberty, start here: http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/f/r.htm
You'll find definitions, an explanation and citations to Marxists and the philosophers that they based this thinking on. I am not being an alarmist, but lets follow Adam Smith, Locke and Bastiat rather than Hegel and Marx.
Posted by: liberty at Mar 23, 2007 6:00:50 PM
@ liberty:
What do you mean by 'inalienable'? Is an inalienable right one that its bearer is not allowed to waive, no matter what?
If so, doesn't the inalienability of a right conflict with (negative) liberty? For example, if the right to life is inalienable, that means I am not at liberty to commit suicide, right?
Posted by: zlguocius at Mar 24, 2007 2:21:44 PM
zlguocius,
No, I think that inalienable means inherant (not granted, but recognized by government) and that society cannot (or should not) abridge it for purposes e.g. of positive liberties.
One can waive any of these inalienable rights, I can waive my liberties temporarily by signing a contract whereby I give up any number of rights such as free speech (if I promise not to give away secrets or say anything bad about the company, etc) or religious freedom or gun ownership, etc. If I waive these rights, its fine, but government shall not take these rights away or abridge them using a justification of some positive liberty or purpose.
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