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Muslims in Europe
Philip Jenkins notes:
...while they're going to grow, by American standards Muslim minorities in Europe are not going to be that huge. The other big issue is that when people talk about Muslim minorities, they automatically assume that everyone of Muslim background is going to continue to be a dyed-in-the-wool, hardcore Muslim in Europe.
There's a lot of evidence that they're not. If you look at Algerian people in France, they have a strong sense of ethnic identity, but there's quite a low level of religious observance. They look like Episcopalians more than anything. Now obviously, there's a small and potentially very dangerous hardcore of quite extreme Islamists, and you'd have to be a fool to ignore that. But the majority of people are very happy to assimilate to some kind of French or Dutch or German identity.
He also says this:
The Middle East in the last 15 years is going through the great demographic transition and that is one of the great facts in world politics. What it should mean is that in about 15 years these countries should be vastly more stable. The next 15 years could be a very rocky ride, but the long-term trend is to underpopulation
Thanks to Jeremy Lott for the pointer.
Posted by Tyler Cowen on March 29, 2007 at 03:19 AM in Religion | Permalink
Comments
"They look like Episcopalians more than anything."
Episcopalians with 40% unemployment rate and a habit to burn cars? According to Pew 35% of French muslims thought suicide bombings were justifiable. These darn Episcopalians!
Nice to see Cowns rules of accepting any argument without question as long as it supports immigration not only applies to the US.
Secondly it is hardly interesting to us if young immigrant toughs in France have a high level of “religious observance”. Are the young Arab toughs rioting in the streets better people if they drink vodka, don’t prey five time per day and don’t give 2.5% of their income to charit?!?
What matters is all the problems Islam tends to be associated with, such as refusal to adapt to another identity, alienation from the non-Muslim society, militant tendencies in scripture, anti-modernity, suppression of women, hatred of Jews etc. Not to mention the low level of education and extremely high crime rate (although as we have learnt to cultural libertarians such considerations are irrelevant).
Posted by: Tino at Mar 29, 2007 4:01:08 AM
What? According to the Census Bureau 4.3% of US population is Asian,
4.4% of the UK population is Asian, 4% of French people self identify
as muslim, 5% of Germans - seems pretty comparable to me. And the
Episcopalian thing is just laughable.
Posted by: jb at Mar 29, 2007 5:28:32 AM
"But the majority of people are very happy to assimilate to some kind of French or Dutch or German identity."
Actually the opposite is true, at least here in Germany. Even the word "assimilation" is still considered polititcally incorrect because it is associated with some kind of forced neglection of one's cultural identity, Everybody is speaking of "integration" instead, and it is seen as a goal for the state, not for the individual immigrant, so even basic language courses are paid from tax money.
Matters are much worse in Europe than Jenkins wants you to think.
Posted by: Nikolaus at Mar 29, 2007 6:14:13 AM
"The Middle East in the last 15 years is going through the great demographic transition ... The next 15 years could be a very rocky ride, but the long-term trend is to underpopulation"
Contrary to this extraordinary claim, the population growth rates in most of the mideast
(using 2006 data from the CIA) are among the
highest in the world:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_growth_rate
Kuwait: 3.5%
Yemen : 3.5%
West Bank: 3%
Qatar: 2.5%
Jordon 2.5%
Syria 2.3%
Saudi Arabia 2.2%
Iran is an exception at 1.1%
The population in these countries is also
extremely young which makes these high rates
of population growth very likely to continue fo far longer than 15 years.
Posted by: Jeffrey Miller at Mar 29, 2007 6:42:14 AM
Jeffrey,
The Middle East is still in the middle of a one-off transition: improvements in infant and child mortality precede declining birth rates. But those birth rates have come down every in the world, and they are declining fast in the Middle East:
Over the next decade, the Middle East could benefit from a similar "demographic dividend." Birthrates fell in every single Middle Eastern country during the 1990s, often dramatically. The resulting "middle aging" of the region will lower the overall dependency ratio over the next 10 to 20 years, freeing up more resources for infrastructure and industrial development. The appeal of radicalism could also diminish as young adults make up less of the population and Middle Eastern societies become increasingly dominated by middle-aged people concerned with such practical issues as health care and retirement savings.
Perhaps a little optimistic, but the demographics are correct.
Posted by: Justin at Mar 29, 2007 9:00:38 AM
Whups, forgot the link:
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20040501faessay83307-p10/phillip-longman/the-global-baby-bust.html
Posted by: Justin at Mar 29, 2007 9:01:46 AM
I don't know about muslims, but the jews are disappearing. Even in Israel, the percentage of jews is declining.
Posted by: Renato Drumond at Mar 29, 2007 9:03:34 AM
Anybody else skeptical about the demographic transition being inevitable?
Posted by: josh at Mar 29, 2007 9:06:43 AM
Nikolaus -
IMO, you are entirely correct. The Muslims (mostly Turks) started coming to Germany back in the 1950's, when the economy was booming and there was a labor shortage. There are now Turkish families that have been in Germany for three generations. They speak the language perfectly but have usually not been allowed to become citizens and are very poorly assimilated (or integrated, if you prefer). At one time, this was common in the US, too, with Little Italy, Chinatown, Greektown, etc., where immigrants of the same nationality tended to cluster together. But their children were natural-born US citizens and pretty much moved out of the immigrant enclaves to become a part of mainstream American society. This has not happened in Germany (or elsewhere in Europe), where the Muslims pretty much stick together in their own neighborhoods. I think the idea that they are somehow "integrating" or "assimilating" is pretty much false.
Posted by: Ned at Mar 29, 2007 10:51:20 AM
josh,
there are several Middle Eastern nations which already have below-replacement fertility rates:
Tunisia 1.74
Iran 1.80
Algeria 1.89
Lebanon 1.90
Turkey 1.92
The population is still growing in all of those but it's only due to population not having aged yet, rather than birthrates. And, if those countries have entered the territory of below-replacement birthrates, is there a reason why the rest of Middle East won't follow?
Posted by: Adrian at Mar 29, 2007 10:59:03 AM
Comparing the Algerians in France to Episcopalians in the US is plain weird,
especially given their extremely contrasting socio-economic statuses, including
that Episcopalians come from the most centrally accepted of all ethnic groups in
the US, arguably the country's founders, and the only religion that ever had a
shot at being the state religion of the country, if there were to be one.
However, it is true that Islamic radicalism is a distinct minority among the
French-Algerians.
Posted by: Barkley Rosser at Mar 29, 2007 2:49:29 PM
As usual, the word "immigration" causes Tyler's IQ to drop by 50 points.
- The vast car-burning riots across France in 2005 appeared to have been driven as much by sub-Saharan immigrants as by Arab immigrants. The population growth rate of black Africa is incredibly high.
- The concept of demographic momentum is crucial -- population will continue to grow for 40 or 50 years after replacement fertility is reached in Arab countries.
- Muslims in Europe are, by every account other than the one Tyler cites, are far more radicalized than in the past. Keep in mind that when European leaders came up with the idea of importing vast numbers of unskilled workers from south of the border, IT SEEMED LIKE A GOOD IDEA AT THE TIME. Muslims weren't so prickly in the past. Of course, we couldn't possibly imagine that the Latin American immigrants whose cousins vote for Hugo Chavez and friends could ever develop greater prickliness in America in the future. It just couldn't possibly ever happen.
Posted by: Steve Sailer at Mar 29, 2007 2:58:26 PM
Adrian,
I just meant in general. I know the data is showing that populations keep going through the transition, but does that really mean it is inevitable for all societies?
Posted by: josh at Mar 29, 2007 3:39:18 PM
"IT SEEMED LIKE A GOOD IDEA AT THE TIME": but not such a good idea that they were prepared to consult their own populations on the matter.
Posted by: dearieme at Mar 29, 2007 3:54:28 PM
Europe needs its own version of "the melting pot."
Posted by: David Sucher at Mar 29, 2007 10:11:51 PM
Speculation: that the American "melting pot" is based on our ready creation and destruction of jobs. If people move to find jobs, they're not likely to find a ready immigrant community to plug into. The European job market is much more static than the US market. That points to the welfare state as a CAUSE OF TERRORISM because it allows people to not have to chase a job.
Plus the US policy of "born in the US and you're a citizen" encourages the second generation to become Americans.
Posted by: Russell Nelson at Mar 30, 2007 1:50:33 AM
"Plus the US policy of "born in the US and you're a citizen" encourages the second generation to become Americans."
They've long had the same policy in France. How's that working out for them?
Posted by: Steve Sailer at Mar 30, 2007 3:13:53 PM
The guy who posted the following comment i think he is unfair to muslim fraternity.
"What matters is all the problems Islam tends to be associated with, such as refusal to adapt to another identity, alienation from the non-Muslim society, militant tendencies in scripture, anti-modernity, suppression of women, hatred of Jews etc. Not to mention the low level of education and extremely high crime rate (although as we have learnt to cultural libertarians such considerations are irrelevant). "
Well these guy is naive' about islam is not against modernity as long as these wont interfere with our faith in any way for instance "islam prohibits intrest",all financial institutions accomadate intrest since these accounts for large junks of their profits,variables likes are very sensitive to our faith.
Another issue my colleague mentioned in his comments is "suppresion of women", i want to say thay islam does not suppress women infact its fair to women,you are misinterpreting the fact that islam preserves the honour of women.For example women are not allowed to fornicate before marriage,these same fornication is mentioned in bible.So brethrens if you dont have much insight about islam there so many websites that are interactive on discussing issues about islam.Next time Tino mind your language.
Posted by: abdilatif jama at Mar 31, 2007 3:39:54 PM
To the nearly incomprehensble Islam defender: perhaps it's not fair to state in such definitive language that Muslims suppress women. However, it is very much the case that on this issue, as with many issues, non-secular Muslims are not culturally compatible with the values of the Western world. In this day and age, we don't share your view of "protection" for what we used to call "the fairer sex." Yes, there are those who are strict traditionalists and who strive to follow the letter of the law when it comes to holy scripture, but unlike in many Muslim nations, these are not written into either law (e.g. Sharia) or into the social code.
Another point I'd like to make is that Muslim does not equal Middle Eastern. A common mistake, but the highest or second highest population of Muslims live in Indonesia - pretty far from the Middle East (which, incidentally, does not include Tunisia, Algeria, and it could be argued even Turkey.)
Posted by: fustercluck at Apr 1, 2007 3:20:06 PM
Take a world map and mark the regions with high illiteracy levels, under-development, civil unrest, (extremely) poor record on human rights and religious fanatics. On top of that map project the map of the “Muslim world”…no more comments.
Posted by: Jumbo at Apr 2, 2007 2:16:26 PM
They've long had the same policy in France. How's that working out for them?
It would appear it hasn't worked as well for France as well as it has worked in the United States, for the latter has almost entirely avoided the disorder and violence evident on the streets of France in recent times. The American-born descendants of Hispanic immigrants, while poorer than the US population as a whole, have mostly been satisfactorily assimilated into the mainstream. AFAIK, the majority of them are employed, non-poor, English-speaking, law-abiding, home owning registered voters who practice the nation's dominant religion, Christianity.
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