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French health care
Many people (Jon Chait also) argue that France has the best health care system in the world.
As of 2003, the average income of a French physician was estimated at $55,000; in the U.S. the comparable number was $194,000.
A visit to a GP's office (half of the doctors in France are GPs) had a reimbursement capped at 20 Euros, again circa 2003. It is not hard to pay ten times that amount in the U.S.
Did I mention that health care is a labor-intensive industry?
This is the major reason why French health care is cheaper than U.S. health care. France also spends less per unit on other inputs, such as prescription drugs.
Note that France still spends more than all or most other European systems, namely about 11 percent of gdp.
When comparing health care outcomes, France only does slightly better than many Mediterranean countries with obviously non-enviable health care systems. It is not obvious that France does better on health care outcomes than Japan, again a country with non-enviable health care institutions. In other words, France spends lots of money making people feel good about their health care processes, with only very marginal measured health care results. The United States also spends money on customer comfort, albeit in a more expensive and less egalitarian way.
It is easy to argue that the French system is better than that of the United States. But a defender of the French system must, in reality, fight "a war on two fronts," to paraphrase Derek Parfit. The French system does not, by the standards which have been erected in the debate, appear noticeably better than many other cheaper systems around the world. It does spend more money producing "customer satisfaction" and papering over some of the obvious inhumanities of the cheaper systems. That's why it is easy to hold up as a model.
The disconnect arises because single-payer defenders wish to use international data to compare health care systems -- France > U.S. -- while pushing under the table the more radical (apparent) implications of that data, namely that France is spending far too much as well.
If we are going to be umm...transitive here, let's have the debate where it belongs: expensive health care with marginal impact on measured health outcomes vs. saving lots of money and giving people much less in the way of health care services. I do think there is a good case for the latter, though looking toward the future I would myself prefer the former.
I might add I do favor taking action to lower doctors' wages in the United States. Letting in a greater number of qualified foreign doctors is step number one. But if we're going to criticize the U.S. system for its costliness, let's put the blame where it belongs.
Posted by Tyler Cowen on March 24, 2007 at 01:29 PM in Medicine | Permalink
Comments
To paraphrase: The French system is better, but we shouldn't use it anyway.
Or maybe:The French system looks a lot better, but if you take a closer look it is only a little bit better.
Posted by: talboito at Mar 24, 2007 1:58:56 PM
"If we are going to be umm...transitive here, let's have the debate where it belongs: expensive health care with marginal impact on measured health outcomes vs. saving lots of money and giving people much less in the way of health care services."
This has been bandied about several times. What are "measured health outcomes?" Such a statement could either mean nothing or everything. If "measured health outcomes" means eventual mortality, then yeah, I expect the French system isn't much better, since everyone dies in the end.
There were a number of health issues that I couldn't get care for when I was uninsured, none of which killed me. By the metric you're citing, does that mean the health outcomes were just as good as if I could have got treatment? Sure didn't feel that way.
This discussion is meaningless unless we first agree to terms.
Posted by: Shane at Mar 24, 2007 2:06:11 PM
To paraphrase: The French system is better, but it's not market-based, so it can't be better.
Posted by: Rob at Mar 24, 2007 2:24:48 PM
I agree with Shane that it depends what measures we're looking at. There are many measures short of mortality -- quality of life measures -- where the U.S. does much better.
Also, it's unclear whether loosening up the supply of doctors would driven down overall costs within the current system. It might help insurers extract better terms from physicians, but as long as they practice in a fee-for-service, third-party pay system doctors are capable of extracting the same revenue by pushing up the volume and intensity of their services. They've done it before.
Perhaps under a largely self-pay system as suggested by Arnold Kling we'd get a lot less health-care spending as individual patients are much more judicious with their out-of-pocket costs, more real competition and an insignificant change in outcomes.
Posted by: Kevin B. O'Reilly at Mar 24, 2007 2:36:45 PM
We've gotta find a means to lowering doctors salaries.
200,000 a year!!!!!!!!!!!
and I think many doctors would take a paycut if it meant more reasonable hours and less insane education requirements/debt.
Posted by: thehova at Mar 24, 2007 3:13:46 PM
I agree by and large with everything you've said in this post, only with one detail: infant mortality and life expectancy are terrible measures of the quality of a healthcare system.
We all know the problem with infant mortality (everyone has a different definition), but life expectancy also has its flaws. First of all, it has as much to do with lifestyle as healthcare (Okinawa, anyone?) But most importantly, an extra week or month may not sound like much, but it adds up to so many cancers and other diseases that were detected early.
A few months overall for a few points of GDP sounds like a good deal if it means old people will die at 73.4 instead of 73.2 years, but in reality it means that whole segments of the population are going to die earlier of preventable death. God knows many things are dysfunctional about France, but the choice to splurge on a healthcare system that, ceteris paribus, isn't that screwed up, isn't.
(BTW, in my opinion, Switzerland has the best healthcare system.)
Posted by: PEG at Mar 24, 2007 3:22:34 PM
I might add I do favor taking action to lower doctors' wages in the United States. Letting in a greater number of qualified foreign doctors is step number one.
We already are importing large numbers of foreign physicians. I don't believe we are limiting them in any way. The market is giving us what it will bear.
Posted by: squik at Mar 24, 2007 3:27:29 PM
Note that France still spends more than all or most other European systems, namely about 11 percent of gdp.
What percentage of its GDP does the United States spend?
Posted by: golddog at Mar 24, 2007 3:36:35 PM
I just worked up some numbers. Take your estimate that the average doctors income is $194,000 and gross it up to $250,000 to account for insurance and other fringe benefits. According to the AMA there are roughly 800,000 practicing doctors in the US. that means doctors income amounts to roughly $200 B.
Current dollar US GDP is about $13,500 b.. 16% of that is $2,152 and 11% of that is $ 1,479.5 b , or a difference of $672.5. This implies that doctors income ($200, b) amounts to under 10% of medical spending ($2,152 b). If you completely eliminated doctors income this would account for about 30% of difference between the 16% of gdp the US spends on medical care versus the 11% France spends.
Now I realize my numbers are just back of the envelop calculations. What data do you base your conclusion that the difference in doctors income is the major reason the US spends more on health care then the French?
What is wrong with my back of the envelop calculations?
Posted by: spencer at Mar 24, 2007 3:40:44 PM
This is a reposting of several points I posted on Ezra Klein's website months ago:
1.) Lowering doctor pay is a great idea if you want less talented people in the field. As it is, thanks to Baumol's disease, the number and quality of Harvard students (to pick one proxy for whatever its worth) going into medicine has almost certainly declined anecdotally given the better pay and work conditions of even such demanding fields as law and i-banking (medicine's current competition for high quality applicants)...Logically, one could hardly doubt that decreasing compensation would lead to lower quality applicants. Given the increasing opportunity and absolute costs of a medical education in the US (10 yrs. post college and usually at least 200 thousand in assorted expenses post-college), I doubt this idea could be implemented without significant adverse effects. As it is, even dentists salaries have increased at a higher rate...
2.) Postgraduate medical training (residency) is the real roadblock to more physicians. The govt. funds these spots and doesn't want to pay for more (along with the enormous cost of underwriting medical schools) while hospitals certainly won't do that. Most doctors in addition wouldn't be caught dead in teaching hospitals instructing medical students and residents. The US medical system as a result is already highly dependent on importing foreign medical labor and will continue to be so given these facts. Given the working conditions of long hours, extensive further educational requirements, etc., only third world physicians at present (despite the salary differentials) are willing to emigrate in addition in large numbers, a little remarked upon problem given their training limitations.
3.) Before anyone brings in AMA bashing and cartels limiting the size of med school classes (I can sense this coming on), they have no power over postgraduate medical education (a body called ACGME runs this) or over medical schools (the AAMC sets standards for them). Perhaps people incorrectly think they are analagous to the ABA? There are other ways of effectively increasing the size of classes (limiting woman students since they on average work less post-graduation) but they are politically impossible...
4.) More doctors = less health care cost is a fiction. It might decrease avg. compensation but certainly not total health care costs as every study has shown due to increasing referrals, specialization and procedures. Matt Yglesias had a good posting on his blog about this a while back.
5.) As a cost driver, I think addressing the amount of the current medical system and bureaucracy designed to address litigation risks is a much more fruitful approach. This applies not only to marginally useful tests (e.g. CTs for headaches which I personally have ordered for patients unnecessarily on the sole basis that that was the current "standard of care") but also the entire placement system that hospitals are forced to employ. Our hospital Brackenridge employs a ridiculous number of people just to shift "patients" into other instituitions because we can't be seen to be blamed for a homeless individual's later runins with the law, etc.
Posted by: vik at Mar 24, 2007 3:50:24 PM
I don't think the issues is some average "quality" score, or the cost per se. The issue is fairness and justice.
It is way too easy for responsible, careful, middle-class people in the US to suffer an expensive condition only to find themselves both uninsured and uninsurable on the basis of bad luck and obscure technicalities. It often happens about when people are sick and vulnerable, and can't keep up with the bureaucratic details of their own care.
This happens all the time; it has happened to people I know personally. Just today there was an article in the paper about Blue Cross canceling individual patients on the basis of their claims. That this can occur at all mocks the very idea of insurance.
I don't give a damn what insurance costs, and frankly the standard of care in France is good enough for me. I want to have it, pay for it, know that it covers whatever is going to happen, and be confident that I will never lose it. That is almost impossible to achieve in the US, and the fact that it's especially hard to achieve for small independent businessmen is a factor that stifles innovation, limits job mobility, and ultimately serves as a drag on the economy.
Posted by: Tony at Mar 24, 2007 4:01:20 PM
Unless things have recently changed - it is now, and has been for a long time, VERY difficult for UK qualified doctors to work in the USA. I went into this matter in some detail a few years ago in evaluating the possibility of my family emigrating to the USA.
(From memory) the system was that UK doctors (including specialists with advanced degrees and specialist training exams) essentially had go back to resit their university medical school examinations (including basic science) in a once a year exam held in one location in the USA (maybe Philidelphia?).
It was about as restrictive a practice as was imaginable without actually banning emigration.
I should add that UK medical training standards are _at least_ equal to those in the US. And that US doctors can work in the UK on the basis of their US qualifications and without taking further exams (except English language exams), as can doctors from the European Union and indeed from almost anywhere.
Who benefits from the US restrictive practices? Answer: US doctors.
Who loses? Everyone else.
Posted by: Bruce G Charlton at Mar 24, 2007 4:58:23 PM
You want more immigrant doctors. But I hope that you aren't advocating draining ever more physicians from LDCs to developed countries. Consider this argument from Laurie Garrett (at
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20070101faessay86103/laurie-garrett/the-challenge-of-global-health.html
"As the populations of the developed countries are aging and coming to require ever more medical attention, they are sucking away local health talent from developing countries. Already, one out of five practicing physicians in the United States is foreign-trained, and a study recently published in JAMA: The Journal of the American Medical Association estimated that if current trends continue, by 2020 the United States could face a shortage of up to 800,000 nurses and 200,000 doctors. Unless it and other wealthy nations radically increase salaries and domestic training programs for physicians and nurses, it is likely that within 15 years the majority of workers staffing their hospitals will have been born and trained in poor and middle-income countries. As such workers flood to the West, the developing world will grow even more desperate."
I realize there is a good literature on the help that remittances do for the home countries, but money can do little for health when there is no one on the ground to purchase services from.
Posted by: Frank at Mar 24, 2007 4:59:03 PM
The notion that health spending ought to be measured by life expectancy is like saying that the yardstick we should use when measuring four star restaurants is the cost/calorie ratio, as opposed to the quality of the flavor of what we are eating.
Pretty much everything I've read says that more health care spending doesn't add to life expectancy in any meaningful way. If life expectancy is your only goal, then by all means let's massively slash health care spending. But if the goal also includes quality of life measures such as not having to wait 6 months to get surgery on your painful knee, then it is absurd to make costs the most important factor under comparison.
Single payer systems created by a populist politician under the theory of reducing costs scares the crap out of me. These systems will almost certainly reduce our quality of life, and I strongly suspect if the average American thought about it this way they too would be horrified about the prospect of a single payer system.
If you want to create a system that covers the poor even better than they are now, i.e. add in quality of life improvements to their already fully covered life emergency care, then do that, or at least try, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Posted by: happyjuggler0 at Mar 24, 2007 5:24:20 PM
Where does the $55,000 figure come from? I find it hard to believe. Maybe it includes nurses and orderlies.
Certainly it's not like that in the UK, the figure even for GPs is pretty close to the US one and possibly higher. It wouldn't be hard for French doctors to work here.
Posted by: Jack at Mar 24, 2007 5:24:50 PM
I want to have it, pay for it, know that it covers whatever is going to happen, and be confident that I will never lose it.
You mean, you want your health insurance situation to resemble that of a tenured economics professor at a large, well-funded public university in an affluent state?
Posted by: Albatross at Mar 24, 2007 7:03:54 PM
Single payer systems created by a populist politician under the theory of reducing costs scares the crap out of me. These systems will almost certainly reduce our quality of life, and I strongly suspect if the average American thought about it this way they too would be horrified about the prospect of a single payer system.
I think it's time for some new terminology here.
How about we start using SINGLE PROVIDER to refer to British-style systems, SINGLE PAYER to refer to Canadian-style systems, and NON-SINGLE PAYER UNIVERSAL to refer to systems like that of France, Switzerland, Germany, Japan, Australia, etc. -- where the government plays an important role in guaranteeing the universality of health insurance (and sometimes in the financing of the same), but where there are plenty of non-governmental actors -- including for profit insurance firms -- that play a role in providing and paying for healthcare.
I truly doubt many Americans would be "horrified" at the prospect of moving to a version of #3, where the law guarantees they'll always be insured, but where's they'll be able to continue to enjoy the benefits of private sector health coverage.
Indeed, it seems that pretty much all of the world's highest rated systems of guranteed, universal access healthcare follow this public/private mixed model, including what Tyler refers to as France's highly regarded, much beloved but "expensive" (as I stifle the urge to break out in a full belly laugh) system.
By the way, I apologize for the botched pseudonym use above; I was reluctant to call out the famous professor on his own blog. Serves me right.
Posted by: Jasper at Mar 24, 2007 7:23:50 PM
But I hope that you aren't advocating draining ever more physicians from LDCs to developed countries.
How would one advocate "draining" more physicians from anywhere? Are physicians, or any group of people, some kind of fluid to be diverted, channeled, or dammed (or, perhaps more accurately, damned) to prevent their flooding into the wrong places? The physicians at issue are, after all, individuals who would merely make an individual choice to come here, were they free to do so. It seems to me Tyler was simply, and quite rightly, advocating more such freedom.
But I hope that you aren't advocating limiting another person's freedom to pursue a life you take for granted because you judge him to be more "needed" in some poor country. I fail to see how such an individual has any greater moral obligation to serve as a physician in a poor country than you or I do, and we are all more "needed" in any number of poor countries than we are here. No, such an obligation is either borne by all humans or it is borne by none; I want no part of any moral philosophy that requires of a woman in East Timor what it does not of a man in East Hampton.
If there is such a moral imperative and government coercion is a legitimate tool to apply, then why not forcibly ship off some American doctors (and some of the rest of us after our compulsory medical training) to these poor countries to fulfill our ethical duty? I hope such a plan would strike us all as a patently egregious affront to fundamental human rights. Perhaps we should wonder if there is truly such a principled difference between that scenario and the one where we use the same coercive force to, in effect, "ship off" a person to some place he prefers not to be, based solely on the random accident of his birth occurring on the wrong side of some imaginary line.
Posted by: Brian Courts at Mar 24, 2007 9:18:00 PM
I believe France is one of the countries that grants a MD after a 6 year program straight from high school. This puts those MDs at a training level equal to a second year medical student here is the US, or approximately a Master's degree level in other fields. France's system also graduates many more MDs than there are openings for clinical training (the six years is almost all book work), so there are many MDs who are not employed as a clinical physician.
$55,000 is a reasonable wage for a Master's level person. Almost all US physicians, though, have an additional three years training (two in medical school, one post graduate or internship) to reach the GP level and at least three more after that to become a family practitioner, internist or pediatrician. Subspecialists and surgeons have between one and five more years of training, which explains a lot of that higher salary.
Posted by: SteveSC at Mar 24, 2007 10:47:04 PM
Did I read a request for a reduction in physician salaries and education requirements?
*shudder*
Salaries in professional sports are high due to scarcity. When my knee finally gives out from running, I want the professional holding the scalpel to have beaten out others in his/her field. As others have alluded, the addition of litigation-related costs is a recent phenomenon. Surgical specialists' salaries have fallen precipitously over the past decade, real and nominal.
Walk a mile in a surgeon's Mephistos before dropping your jaw at $200K.
Posted by: Dan at Mar 24, 2007 10:49:18 PM
How does a believer in markets type (with a straight face, I assume) the following: "I might add I do favor taking action to lower doctors' wages in the United States."?
How do you justify the regulation of a physician's salary? Shall I regulate yours?
Posted by: topher at Mar 24, 2007 11:09:23 PM
quote:
[How does a believer in markets type (with a straight face, I assume) the following: "I might add I do favor taking action to lower doctors' wages in the United States."?]
Tyler can answer for himself, but with the amount of regulation already inherent in the health care system, I would think it safe to assume that the level of their salaries is partly due to that existing regulation.
Stripping away unnecessary regulation from a highly skilled industry typically results in lower salaries for the "stars." Airline pilots have taken it in the shorts, for example.
If their are unnecessary bars to foreign doctors, if the AMA at times operates more as a union than anything else, if, through this quasi-union certain strictures were to be found that weren't actually necessary, etc.
Stripping the medical industry of said red-tape would lower the salaries in a number of ways, namely of which by bringing in more doctors.
And for those wishing to have the most elite orthopedic surgeons to care for their knees and such, such doctors would still be available.
Posted by: Ray G at Mar 24, 2007 11:19:35 PM
doctors are overeducated (as are lawyers).
I think you can put a lot of the blame on the AMA.
Posted by: thehova at Mar 24, 2007 11:52:44 PM
This is nice, really. I love this stuff.
Let me say at the outset, for what it's worth, I'm an American living in Italy and if I were to get sick, I truly believe I'd get better care, over all in the US. I'd much rather get sick there. That being said, the quality of healthcare here is adequate, if not more so. It's quite good enough.
That being said, I spend alot of time thinking about healthcare in the US, what it is, what it should be and what it will likely become. Comparing the US system to others is certainly not a bad thing, but let's recognize that the current system ISN't 'broken' (yet) so, it's unlikely to be 'fixed.'
It seems these comparisons implicity assume the US can just order up any old healthcare system, the best in the world. But the reality is we can not just scrap what we have and do-over. That's just not going to happen.
Yes, the US spends too much on healthcare (versus the rest of the world), and yes, outcomes should be better, and yes, America should do a better job of providing quality healthcare to all its citizens. Great. Wonderful. Not alot of argument here.
And so...? When does the spending get so onerous that the US just can't provide essential services. Does the 16% or so of GDP go to 20% and then 25% before serious changes have to be made? Will changes be revolutionary - becasue that's what these comparisons assume - or evolutionary?
I'd bet the latter. And unfortuantely alot of smaller ad-hoc evolutionary changes over time, without some great big blueprint or plan, could lead to a worse system overall.
Doctors will have to make less money, no doubt. But it's unlikely to happen in any serious way. More likely, they'll just get fewer increases in the years relative to inflation....very, very, evolutionary.
Again, I really enjoy the talk, the debate, the highfalutin ideas and ideals, but when it gets to the fine details or making necessary changes, it becomes so problematic as to be nearly paralytic.
Posted by: glenn at Mar 25, 2007 1:52:14 AM
and I recognize this seems heretical - to me, too - but I think one must question whether healthcare, like much of defense spending, works well under a capitalistic model. Parts of it, sure. Some other aspects, probably not.
One last thing - and I don't know how cultural this is, or if it's just human nature - a HUGE percentage of spending happens in the last few months of a person't life. Not to save their lives, m ind you, but just to extend it. And frankly, not to be judgmental, but the quality of those last few months are questionable.
People die, folks. Death is inevitable. Somehow, someway, there has to be a limit on this. It's hard, it's cruel, but when it comes to government spending, at some point we have to come to the conclusion that the costs of some services just aren't worth the benefits.
Posted by: glenn at Mar 25, 2007 2:00:16 AM
Glenn, i agree with you, to a point.
personally, when I age I won't take drastic means to prolong my life.
but shouldn't that be a personal choice!!!???
Posted by: thehova at Mar 25, 2007 4:25:01 AM
"To paraphrase: The French system is better, but it's not market-based, so it can't be better"
It's a bit of this too: The French system is better, but we can't switch because then big pharma wouldn't sponsor us
Posted by: Suvi at Mar 25, 2007 6:01:38 AM
The French system is market based. There are multiple providers. It's not even a single payer system.
Posted by: Tim Worstall at Mar 25, 2007 6:44:18 AM
"I believe France is one of the countries that grants a MD after a 6 year program straight from high school. This puts those MDs at a training level equal to a second year medical student here is the US": only if the standards of the French schools have collapsed lately, or the standards of US High Schools has secretly shot up.
Posted by: dearieme at Mar 25, 2007 7:53:12 AM
Tyler, where did you get your number from? First google link on "health care spending GDP france usa" says:
http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml
"In 2004, the United States spent 16 percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) on health care. It is projected that the percentage will reach 20 percent in the next decade (2). [...] Health care spending accounted for 10.9 percent of the GDP in Switzerland, 10.7 percent in Germany, 9.7 percent in Canada and 9.5 percent in France, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (5)."
So France is one of the lowest spender, spends 40% less than USA, and has everyone covered (what is the coverage in the USA? Let's compare apples to apples) and low to moderate waiting lines for non emergency hospital (emergency chain being one of the best of the world from the accident to the hospital everywhere in France - let's not forget of reaching the hospital first).
It's easy to spot an economist writing these day: complete ignorance of reality and no data whatsoever, 100% ideology guaranteed or you money back.
And about the years in training, how three more year is efficient? Efficient in making sure the poor can't be doctors because they can't finance longer and more expensive studies?
Ah well...
Posted by: Laurent GUERBY at Mar 25, 2007 8:08:08 AM
"But a defender of the French system must, in reality, fight "a war on two fronts,"
Ha ha! France vs. cheaper poorer versions of universal health care, and what is the other front?
SteveSC, French doctors half as educated as US doctors? Ha ha! Get some freakin perspective buddy.
Well on second thought there is nothing like a good mandatory art history class to bring out the doctor in someone.
Posted by: mca at Mar 25, 2007 8:58:13 AM
I notice that no one here has actually used the French national health care system. As one who has, I can report that it does indeed give great value for those with broken limbs or minor infections. For those with cancer, care is very nearly on a par with the US--and IMHO, surpasses both the UK and Sweden, where I have also lived. Where it falls down--and very badly--is in dental care (never ever get a complex dental procedure done in Europe--you may, like a youngish friend of mine who went to an expensive Paris dentist, end up with no teeth), in proper drug prescription, and in compassion. That's right, compassion--several years ago nearly 15,000 old people died in nursing homes during a record heat wave, but this statistic masks the fact that about 2,000 more die every summer from a lack of air conditioning. It turns out that all those lawyers and malpractice suits that grossly inflate the costs of our system are actually necessary.
Posted by: KIERKEGAARD at Mar 25, 2007 10:42:07 AM
Obviously, physicians are not a valuable commodity. Those in patient care lack the economy of scale that bankers have. That is, physicians can only treat a limited nimber of patients and, therefore, have a limited income.
Investment bankers, on the other hand, help companies that help millions if not billions of people. If every one of their customers gave them $10, the company would do good. If the physican were pay $10 per patient, the doctor would be bankrupt.
The bottom line is that bankers, individually, are more valuable to society than physicians. Until that changes, more and more Harvard graduates will shun medicine.
This might be a case for higher marginal taxes at an amount over $350,000 or so or for higher capital gains taxes.
This says something about the moral compass of our country. I am not exactly sure what that is.
Posted by: Allan at Mar 25, 2007 11:07:45 AM
"personally, when I age I won't take drastic means to prolong my life.
but shouldn't that be a personal choice!!!???"
Yes, it should, if you are the one bearing the cost of that choice. In any system where that is not the case, your choice should be, and will be, circumscribed.
Personally, I'd prefer a system where I at least have a choice about having the choice to fully bear that cost. The U.S. is one of the few places on earth where that is still possible. Once we go to a system where it becomes impossible for anyone but Gates and Buffets to get insurance or health care that is completely outside of government requirements for minimal services or maximum costs, then personal choice will become inevitably, and I belive increasingly and unfortunately, constrained.
Posted by: march at Mar 25, 2007 12:57:34 PM
More doctors mean more tests, procedures, office visits. As a comparison of huge differences spent per Medicare patient (ie the elderly) in Miami to Minnesota will show, this does not appear to improve outcomes. So why bring in foreign doctors to fill up Minnesota with lots of excess care generating providers?
Yes, health care is labor intensive. Um, car constructioned used to be labor intensive. Automation fixed that. It could do the same for health care. We already have expert systems that beat all but the very top doctors for many diagnoses. Why not use more computers and and other forms of automation?
Automation raises living standards. Bringing in more labor lowers living standards.
Posted by: Randall Parker at Mar 25, 2007 6:52:48 PM
KIERKEGAARD- We lived in France & my mother had a root canal done without anaesthetic (sp?). I never thought about the problem being one of France, but that the dentist was a masochist.
Interesting, thanks.
Posted by: priscieve at Mar 25, 2007 7:44:12 PM
I am truly amazed at the lack of perspective here, I should speak up...since I took a long road though medical school and can enlighten some of you. First point of fact is that Doctors, who are GPs, average $153K per annum. (Specialists can make some fantastic money, but they pay their dues) Remember that we graduate school at the age of 30 with something like $250K in student loan debt, and start at a salary of $80K! Watch your hands shake as you write that check to the US gov. loan office for $2,000 per month! Then you get the fun of paying $15,000 for malpractice ins ( I pay mine), Dea license is $555, State license is $175, CDA is $100, oh and someone mentioned benefits! I pay $800 per month for my medical insurance ( I am in a private office and also balance .5 million for a practice loan at 9% interest) Try to come to grips with the fact that medical/dental schools have 40 credit/ hour semesters, and no rah-rah summer break, and you get the picture that we have 4-5 times the education basis that we are given credit for. Are we overeducated?? Ask your son or daughter who's blood pressure is bottoming out while we look for the source of her internal bleeding.
Posted by: john oshea at Mar 25, 2007 8:00:15 PM
In my view, the supply of health care professionals would increase if the quality of Math and Science enducation could improve markedly. Further, the regulation and licensing of Medical schools is a barrier to trade which inhibits certain organiztion from entertaining the idea of assuming the education of medical professionals and their subsequent use in residence at employee clinics, I wonder how much the costs of health care to a company like Ford would decrease if it had a staff of of residents on its payroll?
Posted by: Ronald Ramo at Mar 25, 2007 9:34:15 PM
john oshea,
So sorry for you barely surviving on $150K/year.
Where it was legislated that length of education dictates one's
wages?
PhD in History may study longer than it takes to go thru Med School and residency
and still makes 1/3-1/2 of GP salary.
If you don't like your educational loans, you should have go to Caribean med school for 4 years,
get MD diploma, come back, pass couple of tests and residency and start really making money
by time you are 26.
The fact that pretty average foreign docs have no problem to pass whatever tests
AMA makes them, just might indicate that your are not that superior to
them, regardless of the length of your education.
Posted by: mik at Mar 26, 2007 2:29:04 AM
Just to clarify my statements given the comments above:
The 6 year medical school "straight from high school" means the high school graduate goes to medical school immediately afterwards. The program includes what is commonly called "pre-med", e.g., a baccalaureate or BA/BS program, plus two more years of coursework roughly equivalent to the first two years of medical school here.
Second, education does not equal competence. But when I was in the medical training system a while ago, I had experience with MDs from several countries in Europe. They had completed their degree, but had not been able to obtain clinical training positions (which are often similar to apprenticeships). Many of these MDs had great "book smarts", e.g., they could name 1,000s of tiny little anatomical parts, using the correct Latin every time. The problem was they had not, prior to coming to the US, touched or even in some cases, talked to real patients.
Ask any physician, the difference between the clinical skills of an end-of-second-year medical student (book learned) and those of a newly graduated US MD are huge. The learning curve and change in skills is even higher during the first year of postgraduate training.
Posted by: SteveSC at Mar 26, 2007 9:34:16 AM
MIK - Let me say a couple things.
You're absolutely right that the length of education does not, and should not,
dictate one's wages. But IMHO (and I do mean humble), I rather think someone
who is trained to save lives, improve lives, and regularly does so, is worth
a tad more than someone who does not. It's not clear cut at all. I do not think
that I am stating a fact.
And as much as I value education, and educators (having several over-educated
professionals in my family), I'd pay any amount I could to have a sick loved one
better. I'd pay less, much less, to have them taught by a history professor.
Posted by: glenn at Mar 26, 2007 9:36:18 AM
We're not producing enough doctors. I even made a chart:
http://i14.tinypic.com/403h7js.png
http://www.swivel.com/data_sets/spreadsheet/1004424
Posted by: Chris at Mar 26, 2007 2:59:59 PM
During the heat wave in France several summers ago it was reported that many elderly died
because so many doctors and nurses were at the beach for their summer vacations.
This would not happen in the US. Coverage comes first.
Just reading throught the posts there is a great deal of misinformation about our own
healthcare system, which I suppose makes the debate more difficult.
Posted by: save_the_rustbelt at Mar 26, 2007 3:12:43 PM
"...If you don't like your educational loans, you should have go to Caribean med school for 4 years, get MD diploma, come back, pass couple of tests and residency and start really making money
by time you are 26....."
It would be very unlikely a reputable hospital would grant privileges to such a doc without
a full residency, if then. It would be difficult for such a doc to get into any decent residency program.
Market restraint or quality control? Probably both.
Posted by: save_the-rustbelt at Mar 26, 2007 3:17:29 PM
I found a couple of other figures in Tyler's source interesting--France has more GP's and fewer specialists than the U.S. There weren't any specific figures on nurses, but another source showed a very wide variation in nurses in Europe (seems as if the number of doctors plus number of nurses equaled about 11 per 1,000 pop total--Italy had lots of doctors, but much fewer nurses for example). There was a figure on non-physician personnel per hospital bed, where the U.S. had about 2.5 times the number as France. We had fewer beds and shorter stays than France.
I wonder--to the extent medicine competes with law and finance for personnel, is it realistic to expect to reduce physician salaries without reducing the compensation for lawyers et.al?
Posted by: Bill Harshaw at Mar 26, 2007 4:24:20 PM
save_the_rustbelt, recent study show that Luxembourg and Spain had more death relative to population due to the 2003 european heat wave than France. Italy was similar, Germany had less, see here:
http://www.lefigaro.fr/sciences/20070323.FIG000000024_canicule_morts_en_europe.html
(Luxembourg is not a poor country.)
Total estimate for Europe at 70 000 death over the average.
My own take is that we don't have a culture of air conditionning in France (yet) and that people were mostly unprepared against the unknown as usual.
Posted by: Laurent GUERBY at Mar 26, 2007 4:51:39 PM
Investment bankers make more than doctors because their work scales, as noted by Allen on Mar 25, 2007 11:07:45 AM .
Fair enough.
That does mean that the investment banking industry won't sop up very many potential doctors.
That's even before we note that the skill sets are different, and therefore some of the investment bankers never were potential doctors in the first place. This concern might be almost like worrying about the nubmer of potential doctors become NBA baseball players instead, because of the larger sums available.
-dk
Posted by: Dick King at Mar 26, 2007 8:53:42 PM
The argument that investment banking scales I grant but the idea that the resulting differential pay scales have zero effect on the labor market for doctors is hardly plausible given the extensive focus on success (largely though not entirely correlated with income) and choosing a "good" profession in many education-obsessed, upper middle class families (the demographic that does in fact provide many doctors, lawyers, bankers, etc.). Moreover, NBA players have certain physical assets that none of the preceding professions have so its pretty much a false analogy...
Posted by: vik at Mar 27, 2007 12:23:34 PM
OK, the $55,000/year average pay for French doctors figures comes from the link that shows the US equivalent. Nevertheless I think it's either wrong or the word "net" is doing a lot of work. I haven't found any definitive figures but this link
http://management.journaldunet.com/dossiers/050165salairo/salaires_10000.shtml
does suggest that the $55,000 figure is low. Note Jacques Chirac on that page and surgeons are on the next. according to the site nurses make around $50,000.
Posted by: Jack at Mar 27, 2007 3:20:02 PM
Interesting discussion. A couple of thoughts - I'm a practicing physician in primary care.
First, can we please plunge a stake through the heart of the old "AMA cartel limits the number of physicians to drive up salaries" canard. The AMA is almost universally seen as irrelevant among all the physicians I know. Nobody I know is in the AMA, and nobody reads their journal.
Vik mentioned above, in the US it's the AAMC and ACGME that limits the number of physicians trained each year. The limits on numbers come not from a nefarious desire to run up salaries, but from the limited number of faculty docs willing to supervise and train upcoming student physicians, and the limited number of patients willing to let medical students and residents practice on them. It's not easy to just open up the faucet and crank out more docs, because to become a reasonably skilled OB/Gyn for example you need to have done a certain number of supervised deliveries, c-sections, hysterectomies, etc.
With foreign MDs it's a little more complicated. There's 2 main bottlenecks - first, to get board certified in the US in a specialty you usually need to complete a ACGME certified residency so you're right back in the same boat with domestic MDs.
The other bottleneck is the state licensing process, and the hospital credentialing process. Let's say we want to import a bunch of docs from some obscure country. How can the hospital they're going to work at verify that they are competent in their specialty? If someone slips through the cracks and kills/maims someone the hospital will be sued into oblivion.
One other thing - I doubt most physicians will openly admit it but medicine is a pretty crappy job. Most of us become so used to working nonstop it just becomes normal and we don't even think about it. Minimum 10 hours straight, no breaks is a normal day for me, and often more when on call. I eat lunch at my desk while reviewing labs and completing charts, and so do all my colleagues. Yeah I make decent money, (around 140K) but the reality is it's pretty much just a bribe to keep me doing this. No way in hell would I do this job for even 80K let alone 55K.
Posted by: Steve S. at Mar 28, 2007 3:39:11 AM
Steve S.,
I find your assertion that not as many doctors want to be teachers a little hard to swallow since, you know, life as a practicing doctor is so hard.
I think you are throwing out a bunch of Red Herrings, regardless of who is regulating the number of US medical schools, the whole licensure procedure acts as a bar on the increase in the number of US med schools.
How to hedge against the possibility of horrible outcomes from less experienced doctors is negative outcomes insurance that is being proposed by some in Congress, like Ron Paul. Moreover, what about other medical professions that jack up the price, like nursing. Lastly, what about government regulations that limit who can do certain medical acts like the midwives and the delivery of children.
Posted by: Ronald Ramo at Apr 5, 2007 5:43:10 PM
Ray--
You mention airline pilots as being in a deregulated industry, similar to how physicians could be, with salaries going down all the time. However, while airline pilots are indeed highly skilled, they're not on a level with doctors. There are many people who would be willing to come in as airline pilots if the airline pilots refused to accept lower pay, and the newcomers might be just as skilled. The airline pilots also have to take lower pay, because if they don't they may be forcing their employer into bankruptcy-- which means nothing for them.
Posted by: Gloria at Apr 10, 2007 11:34:51 PM
Your theory that the average income of physicians in the US is 200k is incorrect. The average gross pretax income is about 140k per year with an average workweek of about 75to 80 hours and an average education of about 13 years and an average debt of about 150k. Most physicians do not have additional perks or benefits as they are self or group employed so no matching of funds in retirement etc. They are at risk for 20 to 30 mill on almost every decision and they are condemned by society at every turn. We are more and more turning to arabic and asian physicians to fill our training slots because an ungrateful society is running phsicians out of practice faster than recruits can take their place. Same is happening in most of western Europe including france. Also, the mistaken notion that healthcare in france is free is absurd. You pay in taxes rather than at the hospital but either way you pay.The french economy has much higher unemployment than the US and they are rapidly moving towards a crisis with an aging population and a huge welfare state debt.
Posted by: Fran at Apr 19, 2007 12:23:53 AM
I think that paying doctors less is a fantastic idea. We will all save a little money until all the doctors become lawyers and sue the rest, driving up our costs even more.
Posted by: Max at May 3, 2007 12:24:04 AM
To best understand how the French health care system works, I think it is best to begin with a look at the French health insurance system.First of all, all legal residents of France are covered by public health insurance, which is one of the social security system's entitlement programs. The public health insurance program was set up in 1945 and coverage was gradually expanded over the years to all legal residents: indeed, until January 2000, a small part of the population was still denied access to the public health insurance.
Posted by: Drug Detoxification at May 18, 2007 8:31:44 AM
Nice post! You have said it very well. Keep going.
Posted by: Fred at May 31, 2007 1:13:40 AM
Bunch of baloney
Posted by: Shiv at Jun 30, 2007 4:14:04 PM
It's hard to understand why a number of people have blamed the French medical system for the 15,000 or so excess heat-wave deaths in France in August 2003; presumably these people would also blame the doctors and hospitals in western Europe for the rest of the 70,000 deaths attributed to heat in the rest of Europe that August.
But surely it's not the responsibility of the French doctors and hospitals in Paris, say, to phone the home of every elderly person living alone while their families and neighbors took the widespread August vacation that year. Isn't it the responsibility of family members, or of the social servies organizations in city governments, to check on elderly people living alone in severe weather conditions.
Remember that during a severe heat wave in Chicago in 1995 nearly 750 people died of heat effects. Was it the responsibility of Cook County and University of Chicago hospitals to keep tabs on every old person in their neighborhoods? I am not a doctor trying to defend myself, but on logical grounds why are doctors to blame for these tragedies, and why does government-organized health care - or socialized medicine, or single-payer schemes - have anything to do with this problem
Finally, in another connection, do people understand that nearly 50% of healh care expenses are already paid by the government in this country, and the percentage is increasing. So what system are the opponents of government involvement objecting to.
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Posted by: wslmwps at Aug 14, 2007 3:55:47 AM
The French system IS better. Hands down.
As an American living in France, I can say that I find the French system top notch. I would much rather start with the French system and fix it than try to fix the US system.
The basic problem with healthcare economics and the free market is the answer to the question, "How much is your or your child's life worth?" and its correlary "How much is your neighbor's life worth?" When there is no limit to what one is willing to pay for a service, how can you speak of a "free" market?
The key to France's system is their abiliy to balance private/public insurance and private/ public healthcare. Basically the system works but many aspects could not be transferred to the US without much difficulty.
Yes, French doctors have no Med School debt, have lower insurance rates but they are also much less greedy than US doctors and quite content to earn between 100 and 200K$. (the 55k$ figure is probably somewhat low because it's probably a net figure after SS tax, the way French usually speak of 'gross salary.') Also, I would bet that on average French doctors work much fewer hours than their US counterparts. I know several docs who are happy to earn equiv of $90k and only work 4 days a week. It also doesn't take much of an investment to set up a doc's office in France.
But then all the French are inclined to "earn less and live more" than we Americans.
Secondly,importing the US tort system and skarkskin suit lawyers to France would probably kill the French system. Laywers in Europe are not allowed to advertize, nor be paid as a percentage of a clients winnings. Nor are they allowed to file class action lawsuits. (Don't everybody try to immigrate here at once!)
French hospitals and even doctors' offices are not luxurious and the "bare bones" atmosphere shocks a lot of Americans. Nearly all GPs and most specialists operate out of converted apartments and almost never have other medical personnel working with them (thus low % of nursing staff). At best they might have a secretary and that is even rare. My own GP answers the phone and handles payments herself. "Paperwork" is nearly completely automated by using the Social Security smartcard. It literally takes the doc 3min to process my payment and make a few notes on her PC. (Tell that to your Swedish friends!) All the data is then transferred electronically to my private insurer who will reimburse me within 2wks. There is low overhead because hardly any medical procedures are performed in the doc's office, thus little need for equipment. (for ex. not even drawing blood.) The best part is that you actually get to spend 10 to 20 minutes WITH THE DOCTOR. All this for only 22€ for a GP visit. (and I get reimbursed 21€; 70% by SS, the rest by my private insurance.)
French docs may choose to work with the national insurance system or not. 99% of French doctors choose to do so. Within the system they can choose among two rate systems. 85% of doctors choose to participate in the lower rate system which gives better coverage to their patients and lowers their own payroll taxes.
To fix the French system: Up the co-pay from 1 euro to 5 euros. Add a 100€ deductable for higher income households. Hand out real sanctions for over prescription of antibiotics and tranquilizers. Go back to having people pay for their prescription drugs and getting reimbursed rather than the new system of direct billing to the insurer. Stop reimbursing aspirin and spa treatments!
I have been treated in both public hospitals and private clinics in France and in both cases the care was similar and satisfactory.
Yes, it's true that you have to choose your French dentist wisely. I've found the younger ones much better qualified. Don't quite understand how France can be world leading in cancer treatment, transplants, & vaccines and have such poor dental care, but I think this is a annecdotal historical difference, not a systemic problem.
Also not all residents are covered by French social security. People who live only on investments (no salary) have to take out their own private insurance unless they earn less than 8k€/yr.
And how much education do you really need to be a GP? Most GPs here are 29 by the time they can open up shop on their own. (Assuming they did not do military service.) And yes, they go directly from high school to med school.
Never heard of anyone in France suffering from having to wait for treatment.
And the heat wave deaths have nothing to do with the French medical system. Too many people living alone, not used to record breaking temperatures and not equipped with A/C. It has more to do with American SUV drivers, if you are looking to blame someone!
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