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Does graduate school performance predict job placement?

For economists, that is.  A superstar team of co-authors -- Susan Athey, Larry Katz, Alan Krueger, Steve Levitt, and Jim Poterba -- writes:

...students’ grades in required core courses are highly correlated across subjects.  The Ph.D. admissions committee’s evaluation of a student predicts first-year grades and Ph.D. completion, but not job placement.  First-year performance is a strong predictor of Ph.D. completion.  Most importantly, we find that first-year Micro and Macro grades are statistically significant predictors of student job placement, even conditional on Ph.D. completion.  Conditional on first-year grades, GRE scores, foreign citizenship, sex, and having a prior Masters degree do not predict job placement.  Students who attended elite undergraduate universities and liberal arts colleges are more likely to be placed in top ranked academic jobs.

Here is the paper.  This bit comes at the end:

Our results raise an interesting question: Why are some characteristics much stronger predictors of grades than of job placements?  Foreign-trained and male students achieve substantially higher first-year grades, on average, but do not appear to be placed into much higher ranked jobs.

In my time, twenty years ago, foreign-trained students are more likely to have already seen the core material.  It may also be that many elite, non-U.S. educational systems are better geared toward producing good grades than producing independent researchers.

Posted by Tyler Cowen on January 8, 2007 at 06:24 AM in Education | Permalink

Comments

I'm surprised they didn't condition on the student's specialization in economics when predicting job placements. The general perception is that conditional on first year ability, job market candidates with theory papers have a much harder time on the job market than candidates with empirical papers.

Posted by: sanagol at Jan 8, 2007 10:04:54 AM

It's all about the prestige of the school. If you want a good job in economics, you need to (1) attend a top graduate school; and (2) attend a top undergraduate school. In descending order of importance.

Posted by: Half Sigma at Jan 8, 2007 10:35:11 AM

"It may also be that many elite, non-U.S. educational systems are better geared toward producing good grades than producing independent researchers."

Hmm, and this is your second guess!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! (Note that what your first guess could actually speek against your second guess)

Could it not be because the makret is much better in the US and US born students have an advantage in their own market. Combined maybe with the fact that foreign students have a much stronger interest in moving to markets that are worse than the US market (i.e. home to mom and the boyfriend/girlfirend).

Posted by: aaron_m at Jan 8, 2007 10:35:22 AM

I think the link to this paper is broken...

Posted by: Bruce G Charlton at Jan 8, 2007 11:29:27 AM

The link is working for me...go to the AEA program for another way in...

Posted by: Tyler Cowen at Jan 8, 2007 11:36:38 AM

There is saying in law school that those who get A's become judges, those who get B's cannot get a job, and those who get C's become millionaires. I think something similar can be said about economics in grad school. In my experience, first year performance and job placement are weakly correlated, if at all. In a lower ranked school like mine, people who did exceptionally well the first year possessed a firmer understanding of mathematics, but did not necessarily possess a passion for economic research. A curious mind and an extraodinarily capable mathematics mind are not at all the same thing, but the former is rewarded more on the job market since that will be the thing driving a good job market paper, publications in graduate school and positive letters of reference from faculty advisers. I have seen many straight A graduate students struggle to find an original idea, for instance, while I've seen many B students who love economics do exceptionally well on the market.

Posted by: Jason Voorhees at Jan 8, 2007 11:47:10 AM

How is it that (from the first excerpt) conditional on first-year grades,
sex and foreignness do not help placement, but (according to the second
excerpt) males and foreigners get higher grades without placing into
better jobs? These claims seem inconsistent.

Posted by: Anon at Jan 8, 2007 1:06:00 PM

I think the difference with foreign students has much to do with the fact that America continues to favour liberal educations with broad, and vague, undergraduate degrees, whereas most other countries have much more focused undergraduate education.
Subsequently, a PhD course in Economics necessarily has to include a great deal of material that the foreign universities have already included in a Bachelor's degree. This would be why US PhD programs all seem to be about 2 years longer than the rest of the world (and I guess why all professional degrees seem to be post grad)
But this head start is only good for first year marks, so on average, you'd expect the same average outcomes.

Posted by: Novo Mestro at Jan 8, 2007 5:27:16 PM

"But this head start is only good for first year marks, so on average, you'd expect the same average outcomes."

Hun!!?

With a head start you would expect the foreign students to do slightly better. Ever been to a race?

Posted by: aaron_m at Jan 8, 2007 5:39:29 PM

Let's have a US student write a paper in French,
polish the paper and submit it to a hipotetical top
French journal. Why do US economists do better?

Posted by: Joao at Jan 8, 2007 8:55:29 PM

Oh, let's also have him giving a job market talk
in Chinese. Lovely!

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Posted by: john at Jan 9, 2007 1:17:44 AM

I have not read the paper, but assume that those who get good grades are indeed better researchers.
Also assume that employers prefer women and US nationals, then one effect may balance the other and we
will observe no correlation between factors that predict grades and factors that predict job
placement.

Posted by: ugo at Jan 9, 2007 8:26:51 AM


Another thing to remember is that most top US programs won't even take foreigners if they don't have a previous master's degree. Thus, foreigners usually have a more technical undergrad education, plus at least one year of grad level coursework before they enter the US program. No wonder we kick ass in the first year (but we can still feel good about it).

Posted by: euroguy at Jan 9, 2007 8:48:24 AM

ugo - it sounds like the paper is implying that those who get good grades are not necessarily better researchers. At least, getting good grades in the first year doesn't appear to predict performance on the job market, which I imagine is a good proxy for "good researcher."

Posted by: Jason Voorhees at Jan 9, 2007 10:07:17 AM

Here's my question: It really took 5 "superstar" economists to write this? Are you kidding me?

Oh wait, I see. There is one each from the 5 universities in the study (you can link Athey with Stanford). I wonder who did all the work ... Oh wait, it's probably the 7 people in the footnote.

Posted by: AZ at Jan 9, 2007 10:21:54 AM

The unspoken truth in economics is that neither "research" nor grades are good predictors of a rich or sound understanding of economics and what their math constructs can and can't do. "Idiot savant" is still the best descriptor of your typical new economics PhD. High status "research" and grades aren't good predictors of teaching ability either -- as if this were a concern in the university.

Posted by: PrestoPundit at Jan 10, 2007 10:18:15 PM

Graduate grades are a waste of time (apply to where?). In our (AgEcon) department, you cannot get lower than a B. All you have to do is pass prelims in the first year. (In the econ dept, grades determine who gets TA positions.) Moreover, effort/grades in classes one is unlikely to use are a waste of energy. A bad grade may be the sign of optimal intellectual allocation. Those who can get As everywhere may be excellent students but terrible researchers.

Good, original ideas matter for both dissertation and papers. IMO, the theoretical link is weak; the empirical evidence may be probably noisy.

Posted by: David Zetland at Jan 11, 2007 2:21:11 AM

If it has nothing to do with job placement...then why are we wasting our time and money on something that won't do us any good in the long run? Why not use that time for an internship where you can get practical experience that can better serve you in the “real world”? And also, what about the students that have a hard time taking tests compared to those that stay up all night to study? Would students have a higher advantage over others? I don't understand why we're wasting our time and money if it's not going to do us any good?! What’s the point besides sending thousands of dollars down the drain?

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