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The eternal question
Should a woman ask a man out?
Megan from Sacramento offers an update:
I stopped by a café yesterday on my way home. Sitting outside was a guy I've seen at Pub Quiz a number of times. Dave told me that Petra saw that guy's profile on some dating site. He's an English professor* and around our age. So I walked over to his table and introduced myself; we chatted about Pub Quiz for a while...
The chatting went well and he has bluer eyes than I expected. He asked a couple times if I would be at Pub Quiz this weekend. (No, I'll be at Hardly Strictly Bluegrass, and are you sure you don't want to hang out for dinner one night?) But he didn't ask for my number or anything. I see him around town a fair amount. I'm sure I'll see him again. Should I be even more forward than walking up to his table and introducing myself? Or with that kind of opening, should I expect that he would ask me out if he were single and interested?
Her readers, some of whom are our readers, run through the usual litany of arguments in the comments.
What is the downside from asking him out? A rejection is soon forgotten. Nor would I fear that Megan marries him, yet sadly ends up with a non-aggressive wimp who is one day unable to use a shot gun to protect his family from rampaging terrorists.
No, the risk is that, dating profile and all, his relationship status is ambiguous. He wants Megan to ask him out, but he would feel guilty doing the asking himself. In that case Megan could ask if and only if she is able to walk away from such situations quickly and decisively.
An alternative scenario is that Megan is being queued behind another woman. This guy will promote her in the queue, but only if she shows real interest. Otherwise the mere act of his asking her out would disrupt his emotional equilibrium vis-a-vis the other woman (women?) in the queue and demote them, in his eyes, prematurely.
In general I believe (unlike my wife) that women should be willing to ask men out. However flawed the strategy may be, it only has to pay off once to be worth it. But I am suspicious of English professors when the relationship between processes and outcomes is so fragile.
Would any of you like to ponder the difference between a Dutch and an English auction, and how it applies to dating strategy?
Posted by Tyler Cowen on October 6, 2006 at 09:22 AM in Current Affairs | Permalink
Comments
Should she ask him out? No. She should indicate that she enjoys talking with him and that she feels comfortable around him (ie flirt)whenever they bump into each other. If he's interested and available, he'll suggest that they go get a cup of coffee (the classic, innocuous, reply) and they'll get a cup of coffe and then they will eventually make arrangements to "get together again." Woemn often think that men they are attracted to are "shy" "mysterious" "enigmatic" "elusive" "afraid of commitment" "emotionally guarded" and so forth. Nope, if he's attracted and available and you indicate that you are attracted and available (every woman knows how to do this) he'll ask.
Posted by: Fred Reece at Oct 6, 2006 9:37:43 AM
I'm always amazed in discussions on this topic how people say: if he's interested, he'll ask. What if the guy is shy? Some guys take a long time to screw up the courage. Until I was in my mid-30s I was never able to do it in less than a month. In other words, from the time I decided to ask a woman out until I actually did, it took over a month. But the advice-givers think that if a guy doesn't ask, he isn't interested.
Posted by: Dirk at Oct 6, 2006 9:52:33 AM
You know, nothing stops her from giving him her number.
Posted by: Xmas at Oct 6, 2006 9:53:44 AM
I put a long rant/comment on Megan's site with my take on the situation. Very quick summary: women, Megan surely included, have all the power when it comes to dating, so of course she should feel free to ask the man out.
Posted by: Peter at Oct 6, 2006 10:09:04 AM
An alternative scenario is that Megan is being queued behind another woman. This guy will promote her in the queue, but only if she shows real interest.
This happens, a lot.
If you ask one girl out then you have to start playing your hand there. You may not be finished seeing where it is going to go with the other girl. You are likely to make a mistake with the new girl because she is not yet #1.
However, if she shows real interest and you are still unsure about the first girl then she can jump to the front.
I think I have experienced this with women before from the other side. As such I think it is always to your advantage to politely show someone you're interested in, that you are interested in them. "Games of Love" aside people dislike uncertainty even in the dating world.
Posted by: Karl Smith at Oct 6, 2006 10:09:18 AM
I would think that this question is all tied into the problem of asymmetric information. Assuming that he is actually interested in her, he may loose interest if she asks him out. Not because he was not originally interested in her, but that because he cannot accurately judge her true worth versus other women he has to rely upon other signals to show her true self. One such signal could be whether she asks him out. The fact that she asks him out could be a signal that she is desperate because others who know more about her are not interested in her. Therefore, if she asks him out she signals to him that she is undesirable by others and therefore he should not be interested in her.
One a side note, this whole thing reminds me of the saying by Woody Allen "I'd never join a club that would allow a person like me to become a member."
Posted by: LD at Oct 6, 2006 10:23:09 AM
Would any of you like to ponder the difference between a Dutch and an English auction, and how it applies to dating strategy?
In England it's illegal to use an auction strategy for dating. In Amsterdam they have an entire marketplace for just such activity.
Posted by: eddie at Oct 6, 2006 10:32:17 AM
It completely depends on contextual clues. If the guy is clearly shy, as English professors tend to be, then I encourage her to ask him out. If he's audacious and extroverted, then I wouldnt, considering that he had the perfect opportunity to ask her out (but did she drop hints that she was single? if not, he may have been waiting for it).
Posted by: Elephant man at Oct 6, 2006 10:35:10 AM
It's hard to ask a woman out. Just ask. If he's interested he'll say yes. It's much less ambiguous than assuming he'd ask.
Posted by: josh at Oct 6, 2006 10:43:02 AM
The real problem with a woman asking a man out is that, from my experience, the man then assumes that the woman is "easy." So the woman risks ruining her honor and being in an uncomfortable situation.
From my point of view, the best way for a woman to ask a guy out is to invite him to a group activity.
Posted by: Kevin at Oct 6, 2006 10:53:42 AM
i think most of the comments are ridiculous. we're long past time the time when a woman seems easy because she asks a man out (any of you all seen sex and the city?). and the signals she thinks are so clear likely aren't nearly so clear to him. further, woman often are attracted to men who do not want to seem like they are louts who hit on any woman who gives them a shot, so they guy may be trying to prove that he's a decent guy by not asking her out at the first (seeming) opportunity (generally a bad strategy as you can slip into the dreaded friend category). at base, he gave her the perfect opportunity to ask him out. why didn't she? any other way of looking at the question is very 1950s (and would likely seem so to younger folk).
Posted by: dj superflat at Oct 6, 2006 11:23:06 AM
What I think is the case: the English professor is non-Alpha, and therefore has been rejected and sometimes humiliated by many women he's approached ("Can you believe that weirdo creep asked me for my number?!"). So naturally he's very gun-shy about taking the initiative with Megan even though he's interested in her. In fact, I'll bet that right now he's miserable that she didn't ask him out.
Posted by: Peter at Oct 6, 2006 11:40:30 AM
Tyler thinks it is OK. His wife doesn't. My conjecture is that this gender pattern
would hold at the population level, too. The question is why? Any one have a hypothesis
or, better yet, some data?
The person who said, "if he likes you, he'll ask" is completely clueless. Moreover, I would
say that the speed in which a man asks out a woman is inversely related to his quality as a
relationship partner (ie., the faster he asks, the more of a problem he will be), though
women have different preferences for what they are looking for, of course.
Posted by: Knut at Oct 6, 2006 12:04:46 PM
The english vs dutch auction reference seems to me to be asking should you hold out for the best mate you can get or settle down with the first one you find acceptable. I think the answer lies in how much fun you find the single life. If you really like being single you should wait, if not find the first acceptable mate and settle down.
Posted by: sourcreamus at Oct 6, 2006 12:25:11 PM
It is all about signaling attraction. When asking a woman out, most men could use some signal that a woman will not reject them if asked out. However, that signal has to be somewhat subtle (i.e. flirting). When a woman asks a man out, the signal might be interpreted as if saying "I am desperate", saying "I am easy" (hey, us men are hopeless...) or "I am interested".
The problem with the first is that no (desirable) man finds a desperate woman to be atractive. So this might have an adverse selection problem: If interpreted as desperate, attraction might be put off or she might be considered a simple entertainment for the man. The later would probably be the case if the signal is interpreted as "I am easy".
The key question are:
1) How costly is it for a woman to have her signals misinterpreted?
2) What are the relative frequencies at which (desirable vs non-desirable) men misinterpret the signals?
(Disclaimer growing up in the macho-culture of Latin America may have altered my view on the interpretation content of the signal of being asked out by a woman)
Posted by: Economister at Oct 6, 2006 12:52:38 PM
The broad disagreement here as to which approach is best and which approach is most acceptable is an indicator that we are in a very unstable era for social norms. Clearly it is still a transition period with different areas, age groups, social and political groups, population density strata (urban vs. rural), media consumers, as well as genders finding different things to be acceptable and to be different kinds of indicators.
Some men will clearly be turned off by a woman who asks a man out, while some women will be turned off by a man who asks too soon. Yet some men will be waiting so as not to turn off those women and the woman will see him as weak and frail and unmanly; while the woman who refrains from asking so as not to seem too easy/desperate risks being seen as old-fashioned or uninterested.
I am not sure if this dilemma is at least solved within certain social spheres as all have come to agree on one interpretation or whether its just a mess all over. Me, I have little experience in this dating scene, however I have always ignored all of the above and just asked if I was interested. It takes nerve but hey - if he says no then it doesn't matter much why and if he says yes then it was worth it. Waiting only works if you'll have another chance and so long as you're not too overbearing, if you're a good match then it shouldn't matter when you ask. So its riskier to wait as you might miss out.
Posted by: marginallyinteresting at Oct 6, 2006 1:03:10 PM
So asking an English professor for a date is an English auction and the strategy would be different if he were a Dutch professor? There was, as a matter of fact, an author of Harlequin romances wherein all the male leads were Dutch professors.
Posted by: triticale at Oct 6, 2006 1:17:47 PM
"we're long past time the time when a woman seems easy because she asks a man out (any of you all seen sex and the city?). "
Um... have YOU ever watched that show? The women on that show are the epitome of "easy". I've only watched the first 1 1/2 seasons so far I'm shocked that they don't all have herpes yet.
Posted by: Jacqueline at Oct 6, 2006 1:53:38 PM
"In general I believe (unlike my wife) that women should be willing to ask men out."
But Tyler, it's obvious that your wife is the one who's actually the expert on how to marry a great guy. ;)
Posted by: Jacqueline at Oct 6, 2006 2:47:56 PM
Most likely, the guy just wasn't attracted. The other option is not shy - he spoke with her - it is lack of experience and concommitant fear of rejection.
Attracted and even somewhat experienced men know when they are being gamed up. If a woman talks to you out of the blue, she's generally interested.
A woman asking me out signals desperation. Or easiness. Or just being overly aggressive. I'm not looking to date a slutty, desperate or overly-feminist woman. I'm a confident man, so, let me be one. If I want to go out with you, I'll know. If you want me to ask, talk to me and act like you care what I'm saying.
Ironically, I find the opposite to be the general case. Women want you to talk to them but are so fearful of rejection that they don't put out the buying signals. Especially the really, really good looking ones, who's looks intimidate most men.
The game works just fine as is. While a woman may be frustrated by a man's failure to acknowledge her buying signals, I can guarantee that she'll dump the guy in three to six weeks after he displays such unmanly/inexperienced behavior over time.
I think any woman will end up being disappointed with a man who lacks confidence to the degree of being afraid to ask for a phone number or email address after a conversation that she initiated. Whether she realizes it at the time is a different matter.
Just one man's opinion.
Posted by: jdd at Oct 6, 2006 3:59:32 PM
What if the English professor reads her blog? Perhaps this is just a really transparent way to signal that she fancies him. Then if he's like me, that information will help him overcome his shyness.
Posted by: noto at Oct 6, 2006 4:06:07 PM
One thing you're missing jdd. Especially in academia and other brainy professions and sectors, there are men (usually very cute, sweet and intelligent) who honestly don't catch the signals. They might have the guts to ask you out if they realized you're interested, but it just flies right over their heads. An attractive and confident woman would do best to ask these guys out if they are interested. And then you have that commercial with the model and the physicist on the beach, or whatever.
Posted by: marginallyinteresting at Oct 6, 2006 4:10:43 PM
Concurring with marginallyinteresting, though differing slightly: he may actually perceive the flirting. However, for some of us academics, this in itself is a sufficient victory. "Oh my god a woman just talked to me, and I think she was flirting with me." That will put plenty of bounce in your step.
You see, some women are flirtatious and don't mean anything by it, it's just their nature; other women are flirtatious and mean something by it. If he's risk-averse, he won't want to ruin his good feeling by pressing his luck and asking her out--and feeling like a fool because he can't distinguish the two types of women, which for academics is a problem b/c looking like a fool is the absolute worst thing in the world--because he'll deprive himself of that little bit of joy. He gets all of the joy of imagining that she was interested with none of the disappointment of rejection or the self-loathing that comes with (still) being unable to distinguish the two types of women and (insert negative voice) "believing that someone like her could've been interested in somebody like me."
Posted by: RSaunders at Oct 6, 2006 4:36:11 PM
most of us, including me, are ignoring how the woman's looks play into this. no guy is turned off if asked out by someone who's truly attractive, because it's clear the woman isn't desperate/undesireable. so some of the analysis has to turn on the attractiveness (in the immediate, physical sense) of megan. if she's really attrative, she can do what she wants (and it would explain why, even with what she thinks are clear signals, the guy doesn't presume to think she wants him to ask her out). of course, if she's middle of the road, she's going to get farther by breaking seeming taboos -- like risking it all by asking the guy out -- than by sitting back and waiting for the perfect situation (great guy attracted to her and willing to ask her out). and just as megan's signalling of williness is potentially ambiguous, so is asking the guy out. if she asks him if he wants to get a cup of coffee, there's little risk he thinks she's a desperate tramp (because coffee is plausibly deniable as a friendly gesture). asking him to a fancy dinner might be a different story. she's got more options that she thinks (nothing about the situation is binary).
Posted by: dj superflat at Oct 6, 2006 5:00:11 PM
You see, some women are flirtatious and don't mean anything by it, it's just their nature; other women are flirtatious and mean something by it. If he's risk-averse, he won't want to ruin his good feeling by pressing his luck and asking her out
This is, actually, one of the reasons flirting is ambiguous. To be able to withdraw gracefully under the pretext that you were "just flirting" and didn't mean anything by it.
So I think his best strategy is to flirt back and see how she responds. If the flirting escalates beyond a certain point, asking her out isn't all that risky anymore.
Posted by: perfectlyGoodInk at Oct 6, 2006 5:43:35 PM
