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Guilt
She gets mad at me for things she dreams I do.
That is from Justin, via Sacramento. A few weeks ago Alex and I were discussing whether a person should feel guilty about his or her dreams. Or should enjoying one's memories of others give grounds for jealousy? How about building a machine which will simulate a version of you who dreams of having enjoyed particular memories?
Frankly, I don't see any clear ground here.
Posted by Tyler Cowen on October 19, 2006 at 03:59 PM in Philosophy | Permalink
Comments
I think that Justin has put his finger on the one piece of clear ground, which I have argued to my better half. We must all resolutely refuse to feel guilty for our actions in other people's dreams. I mean, if we can't get a bit out of control there, where can we?
Posted by: tom s. at Oct 19, 2006 4:31:24 PM
How about losing the all-too-common assumption that there are universal answers to such intimate 'should' questions. This sort of thing varies one individual to the next, one relationship to the next. I've frankly lost the ability to entertain such questions as if some sort of deliberation informed by a normative moral theory could show us the way. If your dreams or memories trouble someone important to you, then it's a problem. If you feel guilty, then that's a problem. The dynamics are different in every case. Talk it over and work it out.
Posted by: Anonymous at Oct 19, 2006 4:34:37 PM
Sorry, this is one on which there is NO reasonable disagreement.
Only the dreamer is "responsible" for what happens in their dream.
Of course, if you behave badly in her dreams, it might reveal something about her anxieties with respect to you.....
Posted by: jens at Oct 19, 2006 8:48:28 PM
Had a relationship with someone with Borderline Personality Disorder. This was common with and others. Lots of controversy on that stuff but I read this and had bad memories.
Posted by: anon at Oct 19, 2006 10:52:20 PM
The husband is also the father of the wife's babies: the sister and the brother. Not just a matter of guilt, but an issue of responsibility, if a trust contract is made.
The problem is that the content of the contract is uncertain. In this case, a simple contract with the guideline fixed and prespecified sometimes is not enough. Some type of stimulus or option should be resubstantiated when necessary.
In fact, only when the wife is crying, the husband then start to think of some way to solve the problem: for example, he may suggest the wife to go out and do some extra work. At first the wife may not figure out the idea as to her emotional status, and the tenderness of the husband make himself take the responsibility all by himself.
In this case, things look irrational at first as to its future expectation. However, this is actually an excellent trigger to explore the potential extremely rationally afterwards.
The intuition behind this situation is that in a group with common interests, the mutual stimulus is quite good way to explore the potential rationally. This is totally different from the situation in the case that the two entities have to compete with each other,which is done with the irrational assumption that one will do much better than the other, although everyone is created equal.
Posted by: sue at Oct 20, 2006 5:17:04 AM
I am wondering if women should do a lot of annoying things to free themselves. Not a bad idea, actually!
Posted by: bart.simpson at Oct 20, 2006 6:25:51 AM
The mystical liturature recomends that you rewrite your memories to be the way you consider perfect. My dad did this all the time and it angered my mom.
The literature also says you create your own reality. This is slightly misleading because the explanations go on to say that you select your own reality from the set of all possibilities. Are the two synonomous?
Banal quote, "Live in the NOW."
Posted by: Huggy at Oct 20, 2006 7:10:13 AM
She gets mad at me for things she dreams I do.
Ben Folds's song, "Trusted" has a similar line:
The sun's coming up
She's pulled all the blankets over
Curled in a ball
Like she's hiding from me and
That's when I know
She's gonna be pissed when she wakes up
For terrible things I did to her in her dreams
Well worth checking out, too.
Posted by: fling93 at Oct 20, 2006 11:56:29 AM
it is an important moral question whether and to what extent we should feel guilty for our thoughts. Although most in this society would not want to see thought crimes criminalized, many believe that "instigation" via speech can be and many also tend to hold thoughts that may influence language (racist tone of voice, choice of words) as potentially prosecutable.
Thoughts in relationships - fantasies about other people, daydreaming about cheating - are sometimes seen as nearly as bad as the action, while in other relationships anything short of actually "doing it" is okay (eg even if there was an attempt, so long as it was unsuccessful it is easily forgiven). This is abviously a choice the partners have to make.
However, what if the thoughts were not truly intentional? It is one thing to spend all night fantasizing about someone - but what about a first thought, the one that pops into your head without you meaning it? A partner can still be hurt and upset that you would think it, but can you be blamed in a moral sense?
Posted by: anonecon at Oct 20, 2006 12:40:52 PM
"Of course, if you behave badly in her dreams, it might reveal something about her anxieties with respect to you....."
Agreed with jens. Of course, dreams also can be a good indication of what's happening in your own subconscious mind. If your conscious mind always can triumph over your subconscious, you've nothing to feel guilty about, but I find good actions easier when the subconscious also knows how it ought to behave.
Posted by: PG at Oct 22, 2006 10:35:28 PM
We dream about what we want or what we fear. If someone gets mad at you because of some unconscious scenario that THEY create, well, that's complete nonsense....and they should be told that it is nonsense if they don't already know it. If they have pre-existing fears or desires about you that have yet to be discussed....then maybe it should be....otherwise find some courage in life and move on.
Posted by: KP at Oct 23, 2006 5:06:57 PM
KP,
You tell your wife that being angry at you for your actions in her dreams are silly. Good luck with frequent sexual relations after a steady diet of you telling her that she is silly.
My wife wakes up angry with me for what "I" did in her dreams all the time. I just let it ride. Simpler that way. The anger goes away. A negative response from me does not go away.
All negative inputs do not require a negative output back. We are not machines.
Posted by: Murphy at Oct 25, 2006 9:19:26 AM
This discussion reminds me of "As Good as it Gets".
Receptionist: How do you write women so well?
Melvin Udall: I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability.
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