« Nobel Prize predictions | Main | Department of Uh-Oh, a continuing series »
Hire Ben Casnocha
Seth Godin...posed an idea I call "Real Life University." Seth questioned whether four years in a place that teaches how to be normal filled with students who are looking for a degree helps me. He wondered aloud whether two years on the road traveling in different cultures, and two years reading books and meeting mentors, would be a better experience.
From that point forward my opinion on the matter became clear: I want to spend four years of my life learning. I don't want to graduate from high school and just start more businesses. After all, business is only kind of interesting. I want to learn. I want to explore.
"Real Life University" – four years of reading and exploration, guided by a "board of trustees" of advisors and mentors – became a real idea I refined and held in my back pocket.
Here is the post, here is Ben's blog. Here is Ben's bio. Here is Ben on his GPA and why not every good college will take him. Tomorrow Ben will tell us where he will go in a year's time. But should he spend four years of his life at a college?
Hire Ben, in a job with real possibilities; if need be give him a "pre doc" to just sit around. If need be, give him part of the year off.
Ben is a living test of whether college education signals the dedication of students to hard work. If Ben does not get or indeed even start his degree, does it mean he is undisciplined? And yes you can see a potential source of worry toward the end of his second paragraph from above.
I have met Ben and he is very nice. I have read Ben's blog. I spent three minutes with Ben, but I will bet my reputation as a judge of talent that Ben will be a future star of some kind. He is already a star. And someday he will own you.
Hire Ben Casnocha, and test economic theory in the process. Contribute to building a data set for the economics of education.
I'll give you all an update a year from now.
By the way: I have always thought that the peer effects of college were the biggest problem with the idea; ideally the smart kids should be sent to a college full of adult students, if only this were possible.
Posted by Tyler Cowen on September 28, 2006 at 09:14 AM in Education | Permalink
Comments
It may also be that going through the standard track of schooling is not so necessary for very intelligent, very driven people, but still benefits others. I certainly learned more outside my classes than in them when I was in school, and I'm guessing I'm not unique in that. But some stuff (accounting, say) I would probably have never studied without someone telling me I had to. That probably made me a bit more capable of understanding the world I live in.
Posted by: albatross at Sep 28, 2006 9:05:18 AM
1. the "college full of adult students" for smart kids does exist -- it's the alumni network at any ivy league school. The real value of Harvard, Princeton, and Yale, is in the alumni and older students, not in the professoriate, at least for those students who don't intend to become professors. (This BTW is why legacy admissions are optimal, they help tie the network to the undergraduates).
2. IMHO, the problem with the RLU idea is the finding of "advisors and mentors." This might work for someone with Tyler's recommendation, but for the average American college bound student and even 90% of the elite, either this is impossible, or the available mentors would be so narrow as to be ridiculous. My dad could have connected me with the right mentors to be an old-school, serious and boring corporate lawyer or maybe to be a judge, but no one in our city would have had the right connections for the careers I've chosen (quant finance, software engineering) or any of the wilder alternatives I considered.
On top of that, college exists to be a broadening and humbling experience, and even a great group of mentors risks feeding your ego excessively. The diversity PC crowd is 100% right about the purpose of education; their problem is that they fail to see that intellectual diversity is more important than skin color. (Working in quant finance and in software jobs has given me a great education in all the ways that excessively narrow and arrogant people sabotage their own careers, but without a good college education I'm not sure I would have noticed).
Posted by: DK at Sep 28, 2006 9:18:35 AM
"I have always thought that the peer effects of college were the biggest problem with the idea; ideally the smart kids should be sent to a college full of adult students, if only this were possible."
I don't know why, but this statement reminded me of the marked difference I observed in commuter students and dorm residents. Dorm residents were likely to be more socially active, while most commuters were more reserved, had less to do with the college "social scene," and tended to hold down a part time job.
I don't know if this is true on a broad scale, but at the small college I attended it was an interesting phenomenon.
Posted by: Brian D. at Sep 28, 2006 9:27:49 AM
I'd hire him like a shot but I doubt two things:
1) That he wants a job working with weird and exotic metals.
2) That I could afford him.
Given his CV he probably already makes a good living from writing anyway. So why's he looking for a job? Experience? Why not research something, (or so something) then write about it?
Posted by: Tim Worstall at Sep 28, 2006 9:43:26 AM
"I will bet my reputation as a judge of talent that Ben will be a future star of some kind."
I will take that bet against a plate of my delicious home made snickerdoodles. He's a smart kid, but smart kids are a dime a dozen.
Posted by: josh at Sep 28, 2006 10:11:34 AM
I went to a good college. Was it the best time I could have spent? Yes. Could I have known that before or during? No. As much as professors think it is all about the classroom, it's not. My college friends are my best ones. Those stupid nights playing drinking games and kissing a girl you never thought you could are the best ones.
I did the traveling after college. I lived a year in a country that I have never heard of before I was offered a job there. Could I have done that without my college professors? Maybe. At 18 you have time. Hell, I'm 24, in a great grad school and living in my 4th country in 3 years. You can do it all, it just takes a plan.
Posted by: RWP at Sep 28, 2006 10:22:07 AM
Isn't it important that he learn "How to Think", and isn't that a valuable aspect of the academy anymore? Does anyone here think he does know how, at this ripe young age?
I, for one, am tired of hearing from people who think that skating through life on a thin ice of soundbites and platitudes constitutes thinking.
Go to a good college young man, and push past the limitations of your "dull professors" and "less talented peers". Go to the library and the read things footnoted in your course assignments.
One of my best memories in life was seeing (live) the sweat on Gary Kasparov's brow as he struggled in vain to defeat Deep Blue -- for days. It gave me the inspiration to struggle -- for eight hours -- with A SENTENCE from the Talmud {the bankruptcy estate division problem}.
Encountering difficult material which does not easily yield to the type of quick analysis so common today would serve this young man well -- be it Shakespeare, Aristotle, whatever -- particularly if he does it in the presence of others committed to the same.
He can be a tourist and shopper later.
Posted by: earnest at Sep 28, 2006 11:18:21 AM
Best educational experience: MBA classes in Kenya
teachers were almost irrelevant, but classmates were
entreprenuers and small business people sharing their
experiences.
Best Teachers - for me in accounting - adjuncts working
inthe real world. for my son in art - working artist
sharing their real world experience.
Posted by: fiona at Sep 28, 2006 11:38:08 AM
ideally the smart kids should be sent to a college full of adult students, if only this were possible
Why not go straight from high school to the University of Phoenix?
Posted by: mobile at Sep 28, 2006 11:54:57 AM
Among the best learning experiences in my life was the time I spent at community college. It wasn't because the professors were that much better or because I had access to more resources than at university; No, it was because I was surrounded by a group of adult students who had all lost their jobs when the textile industry moved overseas.
These students, who had spent their entire lives in textiles, now had the opportunity to turn their lives around, and they approached it with zeal and professionalism. In an environment where you're surrounded by people who are absolutely giving 100%, you can't help but do the same - it's absolutely infectious. I think that, more than anything else, is what many colleges fail at. As long as their culture fails to inspire students to "be all they can be", they will never live up to their full potential.
Posted by: MattM at Sep 28, 2006 12:13:55 PM
"I have always thought that the peer effects of college were the biggest problem with the idea; ideally the smart kids should be sent to a college full of adult students, if only this were possible."
The problem is that although 18 year olds could profit from adult interaction, the adults have little to learn from them. They have been there and done that. For the most part, the only adults who interact reguarly with teenagers are either family or they are paid to.
Posted by: joan at Sep 28, 2006 1:27:48 PM
Ben really is special, and that's also part of the problem.
If Ben chooses to go the Real Life University route, he can draw on friends and acquiantances like Tyler to help him learn and grow.
That's simply not possible for most high school students.
Realistically, there is a need for mass education. Just because a few people are beter off opting out doesn't mean that the model is dead.
Posted by: Chris Yeh at Sep 28, 2006 2:28:15 PM
By the way, it's not that I can't spell, it's that the frickin' right
column of books blocks out the right hand side of the text entry
window, so I can't see if I've made typos. Can you do something about
that Tyler?
(posted with old-school linebreaks!)
Posted by: Chris Yeh at Sep 28, 2006 2:30:44 PM
"Isn't it important that he learn "How to Think", and isn't that a valuable aspect of the academy anymore? Does anyone here think he does know how, at this ripe young age?"
This is ridiculous. As if institutions have some sort of special power to teach somebody "how to think". You can learn "how to think in a specific way as prescribed from our time tested techniques and curriculum".
There is no limit to the curriculum options available to an individual with self-discipline and motivation. Society is structured with a class based, instructor led, spoon fed paradigm for education. This doesn't taper significantly until after the undergraduate level. it encourages intellectual laziness every step of the way in an effort to teach a homogenized method of thought.
"My dad could have connected me with the right mentors to be an old-school, serious and boring corporate lawyer or maybe to be a judge, but no one in our city would have had the right connections for the careers I've chosen (quant finance, software engineering) or any of the wilder alternatives I considered."
This statement address the point I was making on intellectual laziness. If you were interested in finding the right mentors, it would take significant effort on your part. You would have to seek them out, ask them for help and guidance, as opposed to waiting for your father or some other authority figure to serve your future on a platter.
Unless Ben is going to get a ride for college, he should take plan B.
"If Ben chooses to go the Real Life University route, he can draw on friends and acquiantances like Tyler to help him learn and grow.
That's simply not possible for most high school students."
Yes it is. Difficult perhaps, but well within the realm of possibility.
Posted by: Joel at Sep 28, 2006 2:38:19 PM
Joel,
Good point. I misused the word "possible." But I stand by my point--
so unlikely as to be effectively impossible.
After all, it is possible that Warren Buffett will decide to give me one
billion dollars, but I'm not holding my breath.
Posted by: Chris Yeh at Sep 28, 2006 2:54:20 PM
Besides social networks college is also about selection and signaling. The selection process you go through to get into a college and the branding that is added to you resume by the name of the college increases you marketability in the job market. Even if the education wasn't that much better, which is mostly true, saying you have a degree from Harvard opens many more doors than a high school diploma. Even if you go the entrepreneur route a college degree would still be valuable because the contacts you make there could become your future employees, partners or financial backers. Also as an entrepreneur you spend a good deal of time selling you product. Your ability to sell is in part determined by how your prospects judge your ability to deliver. Many will take your educational background into consideration in making that decision. And in case your business goes bankrupt years down the road and you are forced to work for someone else you will have an easier time getting employment with a degree than without one.
Posted by: asiequana at Sep 28, 2006 4:17:00 PM
Joel,
...didn't want this to get "snarky", but your response to my comment proves MY point.
I, myself, didn't study Logic or Rhetoric -- but I have friends who did, IN GOOD COLLEGES, and who are brilliant. They could school you a bit: My point is not "ridiculous", Joel, and then you go on to make all kinds of fallacious comments...
Shame. Shame. Perhaps people who haven't had experiences with people who can, indeed, teach one "How to Think" might be skeptical about whether said people exist. They do.
And it is worth it to spend a few years of life exposed to those people, Joel -- it does one some good. It might even help our young Ben Casnocha push a few more widgets down our throats -- or at least make his widget ads more clever and palatable.
Posted by: earnest at Sep 28, 2006 8:20:48 PM
College is where I learned that I had limits, that I couldn't do everything I put my mind to - no matter how hard I tried. My initial attempt at a physics major humbled me with the realization that there are some people that this is sooo easy for and for whom it makes intuitive sense, and then there's me just trying to understand what the result even means... There are always brighter lights out there, and it's a good lesson to learn the hard way.
Posted by: Shane Milburn at Sep 28, 2006 11:05:02 PM
"I have always thought that the peer effects of college were the biggest problem with the idea"
I think the other one is that college-age kids are typically too young to appreciate college -- especially for schools that ask you to declare your major going in (this coming from someone who spent over ten years in software engineering and is now in a Master's of Economics program).
Given that most people learn relatively little in the way of practical job skills in college (even for engineers like me), and that college serves largely as a signaling mechanism for intelligence and aptitude, maybe it'd make more sense for most high school students to go straight into the workforce for a few years before going to college? Delaying tuition payments makes a lot more financial sense, young people would learn exactly how important money is to them before choosing their major, and companies could still use SAT scores or whatnot as the signaling mechanism instead of degrees.
Posted by: fling93 at Sep 29, 2006 9:38:23 PM
toshiba satellite p200 battery
Posted by: at Oct 14, 2008 2:04:10 AM
Here suppling of a large number of cheap tiffany Jewelry,tiffany Replica Jewelry,Imitation Tiffany Jewelry and Knockoff Tiffany Jewelry,Silver Jewelry,925 tiffany Jewelry,Tiffany Silver Jewelry,So cheap!!!
Posted by: aion kina at Mar 20, 2009 1:54:10 AM
