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Our non-gay military
It appears that the family of Jared Guinther, an 18-year-old from Oregon, was trying to get him released from the army, which recruited him in spite of the fact that he is autistic. Guinther, who rarely speaks, "wasn't even aware of the war in Iraq until a recruiter enlisted him last fall to be a calvary scout, the Army's most dangerous job". Guinther's mother tried to intervene, but the recruiter told her that he himself was dyslexic and that Jared "doesn't need mommy to make his decisions for him".
Here is further information.
Posted by Tyler Cowen on August 12, 2006 at 10:52 AM in Current Affairs | Permalink
Comments
I have mixed feelings about this and would like to know more of the details. None of us can tell whether this particular autistic person was unable to understand the commitment he was making, and I don't think that all people with autism should be banned from holding jobs (it would be very bad for NASA and for engineering and math departments!).
Perhaps the recruiter made an inappropriate choice and took advantage of this young man, or perhaps the parents are against the war in Iraq (I believe that the article said that they were) and simply don't want any of their children in the military. It's hard to tell from a newspaper article, but I don't like the idea of a blanket ban on anyone diagnosed with autism serving in the military. What about 'autism spectrum' in general? The definition of that which is used in some school systems can be so vague that more than half of us would have a heck of a time disproving such a diagnosis, if we were once labelled that way.
Posted by: Ann at Aug 12, 2006 11:18:14 AM
Anecdotal but ugly: A friend of mine considering joining the army reserves said that recruiters routinely tell recruits to lie when they're asked about their medical history -- e.g. he's supposed to say nothing about the slipped disc in his back.
Posted by: Jeff Brown at Aug 12, 2006 12:31:01 PM
From what I know, lying about minor things isn't an unreasonable or even unhonorable thing to do. The one standard they don't seem to have let slip is medical. I've read/heard about many seemingly arbitrary/stupid decisions. Of course, there's a chicken and egg problem here - do the docs disqualify minor ailments because they assume you're lying and it's really worse, or do people have to lie about minor ailments because the docs are paranoid, arbitrary, and foolish?
Posted by: Dylan at Aug 12, 2006 12:38:35 PM
Right, the autistic claim is hard to evaluate at face value. There has been a massive rise in the rates of autism, but not a massive rise in people afflicted with "Rain Man" style disorders, which is the image that the word autism conjures.
Whether the rise of autism diagnoses is due to a) a greater appreciation of the disease and the range of symptoms it causes or b) a response of parents and special ed personel to the massive increase in money available to special ed is hard to tell.
If a child is underperforming the parents can get the school system to devote more resources to that kid if the kid is labelled autistic. In today's society, any kid with below average abilities tends to get labelled with a disease. This, of course, makes no sense. Regardless of what we do, half of the populace will be below average.
Of course, if I were the parent I would game the system all I could to extract every possible resource for my kid, to hell with the other kids.
This same phenomenon happened with the rise of 'gifted and talented' programs. As soon as parents realized there were extra resources available they did everything possible to expand the definition.
Eventually everyone will be either or 'gifted' or 'learning disabled', and a smart parent will probably be able to get their kid labelled both!
Last point: The military recruitment standards mean that the average recruit is in better health and smarter than the average American of the same age. Remember, there are a lot of dumb, unhealthy people out there -- being a fit high school graduate puts you in the top half.
Posted by: mike at Aug 12, 2006 1:34:50 PM
And the government, even the Army, is a huge bureaucracy of course. There are myriad rules to weave oneself in and around, and lying over something that is considered the equivalent of regulatory jaywalking is no big thing. In such instances it is not considered lying per se, but simply finding a way around "the system."
And it's been alluded to already, but obviously the kid does not fit the typical profile of autistic as the Army wouldn't even want him, especially for a scout. Anyone that was obviously incapacitated wouldn't make it through training, and failed recruits actually ding the recruiter's personal record.
So the kid might be unfit for service, but it's not as if they were trying to sign up the "Rain Man" character.
Thomas Sowell has probably been the most well known voice speaking out against the artificial rise of autism, particularly in California. Anyone interested could look up some of his material on the matter.
Posted by: Ray at Aug 12, 2006 3:10:12 PM
CAV, . . . CAV, . . . that would be CAVALRY scout, not calvary unless the Army is recruiting Christian spies to disrupt the prayer time of the Islamic heathen.
Such editing, and the broad definition of autism does not bode well for the story in general. I think this story never took off for good reason.
Posted by: Ray at Aug 12, 2006 3:13:31 PM
I try to suspend my stereotypes on my occasional visits to the real world but I had a chance encounter with an army recruiter on campus last week. He was an absolutely clueless braying jackass. I have to say I was delighted--he's not going to have much success with our students.
Posted by: BroD at Aug 12, 2006 6:58:44 PM
CAV, . . . CAV, . . . that would be CAVALRY scout, not calvary unless the Army is recruiting Christian spies to disrupt the prayer time of the Islamic heathen.
That'll be next :)
As far as this case is concerned, it is mentioned that the young man "rarely speaks," which could mean that he has a particularly serious case of autism.
Posted by: Peter at Aug 12, 2006 8:23:57 PM
What ever happened to respect for parents. If a kid is autistic, trust the parents and allow them to release him. Those who think a parent wants a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder is either not a parent or a very poor example of one. Someone who knows.
Posted by: mark at Aug 12, 2006 9:26:28 PM
_I try to suspend my stereotypes on my occasional visits to the real world but I had a chance encounter with an army recruiter on campus last week. He was an absolutely clueless braying jackass. I have to say I was delighted--he's not going to have much success with our students._
As if the recruiter actually matters! If you sign up you were probably already headed that way, in my experience. Signed up as MOS 19D (Cavalry Scout - M113) myself when I was 20, but it didn't have much to do with the recruiter, just my desire to crush the Other with artillery strikes. :^)
Posted by: Bernard Guerrero at Aug 12, 2006 10:04:23 PM
Am I missing something...?
It is obvious the Army was on pretty thin ice from the very beginning...
Posted by: greg thorne at Aug 12, 2006 11:31:26 PM
While I'm not going to defend an apparently ethically challenged recruiter, perhaps the article should say, "recruited him despite the fact that he is *diagnosed* autistic." It is entirely possible that the Army is filled with undiagnosed autistics due to self-selection. Think of all the enticements: no thinking about what to wear, no problems with executive functioning (forgot something? the DI will be yelling it in your ear any time now), plenty of opportunity to get into a career where people will leave you alone while you perform technical tasks requiring concentration bordering on obsession (analyze all of this intel, break this code, monitor all of these transmissions, look at this radar/sonar screen for hours on end), etc.
I remember reading about a year ago that the Army was looking into retaining Auties for two reasons: one, they were having difficulty adjusting to the real world after retirement, and two, imagine a roomful of people like Bill Gates, John Nash, and Vernon Smith doing your intel analysis. Come to think of it, many Aspies seem to have heightened sensory ability: I'd rather have that guy on point than not.
Posted by: Eric H at Aug 13, 2006 1:01:26 PM
Is the implication of the title of this posting that there are a huge number of gay men out there who want to volunteer for combat in Iraq, but are needlessly prevented by archaic rules, and therefore the Army must sweep in autistics? That's awfully naive, statistically speaking.
Posted by: Steve Sailer at Aug 13, 2006 5:26:41 PM
I'm thinking something much more like:
1. The Army is desperate for people.
2. The Army is apparently recruiting autistic kids.
3. The Army does not want gay people.
The post is clearly intending to suggest that there is some tension between #2 and #3, perhaps hinting that sexual norms can lead to obviously irrational behavior. The fact that it is statistically unlikely that eliminating rules preventing gays from serving in the military will solve the Army's recruiting problems is pretty obviously irrelevant. Unless you're Steve Sailer, and you feel a strong need to defend stereotypes -- obviously it's INCREDIBLY unlikely that a man could be sexually attracted to another man AND want to serve in combat, and only politically correct ninnies would even bring up the possibility.
Posted by: Barbar at Aug 13, 2006 9:10:44 PM
".. lying over something that is considered the equivalent of regulatory jaywalking is no big thing. In such instances it is not considered lying per se, but simply finding a way around 'the system.'"
What?
The things you're supposed to report, you're supposed to report for a reason. Entering the military with autism, or a slipped disc, or a history of using LSD, significantly increases the already rather high odds of hurting oneself or someone else. It's terrible to encourage people to lie about such things.
Posted by: Jeff Brown at Aug 14, 2006 12:19:11 AM
Quote: Jeff Brown:
*The things you're supposed to report, you're supposed to report for a reason. Entering the military with autism, or a slipped disc, or a history of using LSD, significantly increases the already rather high odds of hurting oneself or someone else. It's terrible to encourage people to lie about such things.*
Jeff, you're quite simply wrong. Apparently the jaywalking analogy was completely lost on you. While there are some things that the military should know, most of the restrictions placed on potential recruits are mindlessly petty, and tend to burn up the wheat with the chaff.
Prior use of LSD is harmless.
If a recruit can hack his training, then apparently the slipped disc or bad knee that the military thought was so important to report, wasn't such a big deal afterall. This is afterall, one of the main reasons why the initial training is as rigorous as it is.
As it is, the military tends to look at some things too seriously while not regarding other important things at all.
Once on active duty, smoking a joint can get a serviceman kicked out, 1 strike and gone. Meanwhile, they have alcoholic, check kiting, wife abusing goons with a handful of kids from different women who are allowed to stay in. Why that is, is fodder for a different discussion.
Point being is that the military is one large bureaucracy made heavy with burdensome, broad based rules that do not allow for individual circumstances.
So yes, avoiding those rules as much as possible is completely rational, and hardly "terrible."
Posted by: Ray at Aug 14, 2006 1:40:40 AM
Mike spoke about parents potentially *wanting* their children diagnosed autistic as "a response of parents and special ed personel to the massive increase in money available to special ed".
As the parent of an autistic child, I have to ask: what state, city, or planet is _increasing_ money for special ed? Here in Southern California, money for special ed has been consistently *decreasing* for several years. My son is taught by aides who get paid a lower wage even than teachers, and those aides are supervised by a handful of teachers, for the simple reason that there is less and less money available to pay good people to work with these kids. In fact, they've had to deal with massive turnover rates lately, because it's an extremely stressful job, and you get paid next-to-nothing for it. And this is in California, which is, after all, a pretty liberal state!
Believe you me, there's no massive increase visible here. And even if there were, I'd happily ditch the "increased" resources for having a child who didn't have to deal with the delays, difficulties, and unhappiness that my son does.
Posted by: Fred at Aug 14, 2006 3:32:55 PM
Wasn't this old news months ago, when the Army figured out he was, in fact, autistic, and un-signed-him-up, right about when people started saying "OMG the army's taking autistics! Quagmires!"? (I exaggerate only a litte.)
The boy reportedly is awkward and quiet ... which, to a recruiter, is not exactly a sure sign of mental illness. Unless the kid told him he was autistic, I'd not expect the recruiter to know; the recruiter is not a psychiatrist, and can't diagnose autism from "quiet and shy". I believe the idea is that the induction physical and exams (or basic training) will make such things apparent.
Barbar: The problems with those assertions:
1) The Army's been making its recruiting goals and then some, lately, IIRC.
2) The Army doesn't actually wish to recruit autistic people (see above).
3) Congress made the "no out gays in the military" policy (10 USC 654.), so it doesn't much matter what the Pentagon wants, though I believe you're correct about the overall attitude, by most reports.
Posted by: Sigivald at Aug 14, 2006 5:28:06 PM
When I went through my military medical exam (a few months back), it was impressed upon me in no uncertain terms NOT TO LIE. And they said repeatedly, many times, that if you lie, and if you're caught, you WILL be dishonorably discharged, and you will not be able to get any job other than burger flipping. I think that this claim above that recruiters tell people to lie is b.s.
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