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The economics of marrying a foreign woman
One loyal MR reader has a 51-year-old friend who wishes to marry a younger [addendum: one source, who knows the man, says she need not be young...] foreign woman, possibly with a child. Yet he fears golddiggers. She seeks vicarious advice for him...
I start with the obvious: he is 51 and never married. So the "foreign woman" bit probably is an artifice to avoid admitting bachelorhood is his preferred long-run equilibrium. Beyond that, he should seek out a reliable third party certifier. One is Uncle Sam; Natasha was a longstanding U.S. citizen when we married. But if he seeks a non-citizen, parents are possible certifiers. He should go to India but not even try to meet Indian women. He should try to meet Indian parents. Yes he may be given the worst daughter but at least he gets someone who is still part of her family.
What traits should he look for in a foreign woman? He should avoid countries which lost the Cold War. Avoid women met in hotels or hotel rooms. Avoid countries which generate large amounts of spam. Hepatitis counts as a minus. How about a plus for women who work in agriculture? Any other advice? Readers, feel free to pile on...
Addendum: Here is an excellent article on seeking a bride in the Ukraine, via Jason Kottke. It does not refute my hypotheses.
Posted by Tyler Cowen on July 28, 2006 at 02:22 AM in Education | Permalink
Comments
It is assumed that the woman must be from a country which is much poorer than USA, right? How about finding a beatiful and wealthy Swiss, Japanese or Luxembourgois wife?
More concrete advice: be very careful with women from Central Europe with university degree in economics. No joke - they come from relatively modest backgrounds, while yearning for better standards of living and knowing how to get it (much too often by fooling wealthier males). No kidding. Tested and verified.
Posted by: PK at Jul 28, 2006 6:44:00 AM
Far be it from me to encourage you to diss your "Loyal readers", but from the question as summarised above, it appears to me that there is a high probability that this man is a creep.
If he wants to buy himself a wife, but doesn't want to pay the asking price, why should anyone fall over themselves to help him?
Posted by: dsquared at Jul 28, 2006 7:38:11 AM
The idea of "a reliable third party certifier" sounds good if you can really find one. But how reliable is Uncle Sam? Do you really believe la migra is all that successful at screening out the untrustworthy? And other supposedly reliable certifiers may be in cahoots with the potential bride.
Having said that, after I met my wife, I also met some of her friends and family. In fact, the idea of marrying someone you hardly know strikes me as foolhardy. I knew my foreign wife six months before I married her. Speaking her language helped. Oh, and I warned her I'd never be rich. We knew that we shared at least some values.
That was back when spam was still little more than a tired Monty Python sketch, and the gamble has paid off. Still not rich, though.
Posted by: han meng at Jul 28, 2006 7:51:56 AM
Hey, all these bad comments about women from Central Europe, former
communist countries....I don't like them!
I come from such a country, am currently studying in Western Europe and
am not trying to get some man to simply marry me. To certify this,
there are my studies. Should I say how many times, at friends'parties,
some older (30 smth) man thought that I will fall for him simply because
of my origin? Quite a few times.
If the guy wants a woman from a poorer background to be "bought" as a wife,
he should acknowledge the high probability of getting a gold-digger. Not
only from CE, but also from US. If he wants to bring a wife from a country people try to leave, he should accept that he will probably be taken for the visa. And he will
not be duped - after all, he gets a young girl for himself in return for
this. It is a price, just like everything else.
Otherwise, he should simply go out there and try his luck, without setting
demands on the nationality, income, etc and see what comes out of it. The
idea that he can order a bride that is young, beautiful, smart, adores him
for no particular qualities and obeys his every whim is unrealistic.
The article was very good and interesting.
Posted by: avm at Jul 28, 2006 7:53:22 AM
Well, even if he is a creep, I imagine there are quite a few people in this world who would feel that
their own life and that of their children and or family might be improved by marrying a foreign creep and
there could also be beneficial externalities to people in the creep's country if he gets married. It's
unfortunate, but for some people marrying a foreign creep could be a life saving event.
Posted by: Ronald Brak at Jul 28, 2006 8:00:42 AM
Tyler, Ukraine is written without "the".
Posted by: A Tykhyy at Jul 28, 2006 8:10:43 AM
"She should have plow experience."
- Borat
Posted by: Joe Grossberg at Jul 28, 2006 8:30:56 AM
He's most definitely a creep. He's essentially admitting that he can't communicate (or perhaps communicates all too clearly) with women of his own culture, went through his youth without the ability to form attachments, and now wants a maid with benefits. He'll end up with someone who'll get what she wants and leave him much poorer.
Posted by: boo at Jul 28, 2006 9:20:27 AM
I don't think that inability to communicate or going through youth without the ability to communicate
makes you a creep. I think it makes you someone with an inability to communicate and someone who went
through youth without the ability to form attachments. I understand that there are many groups in the
world today who think it is good for young people to not form communicate with or form attachments
with the opposite sex because of supernatural reasons, so I'm not terribly surprised if there are many
people in there fifties who find their skills in these areas stunted.
Posted by: Ronald Brak at Jul 28, 2006 9:58:32 AM
"He's most definitely a creep. He's essentially admitting that he can't communicate (or perhaps communicates all too clearly) with women of his own culture, went through his youth without the ability to form attachments, and now wants a maid with benefits."
You have no basis on which to conclude that he's a creep with poor communications skills. There are a variety of reasons why he might have reached age 51 without ever having been married. He might be physically unattractive to women, or might have strugged with his sexual orientation. Whatever the case, now that he's ready to marry the pool of available women in the United States is pretty small, if we assume (as seems reasonable) that he wants a woman young enough to have children and that he's not particularly wealthy and/or powerful. Considering a foreign woman is probably his best option.
Posted by: Peter at Jul 28, 2006 10:06:36 AM
I like Central European women (don't know if you're including them in "lost the Cold War" ... in many ways they won more than anyone from the end of it). But it helps that I know the culture and speak one of the languages.
Golddiggers are not unique to other parts of the world. The way you avoid them there is the same as avoiding them here: don't go for flashy women who wear tons of makeup and don't have any plans of their own beyond you.
Posted by: Sandy at Jul 28, 2006 10:07:42 AM
Sandy:
"don't have any plans of their own beyond you"???
Suppose I'm a woman and I have a plan to use your money to start a business.
Just remembered a joke about EE wives, it's told in post-SU:
A wealthy Central Asian marries an EE woman and tells her: when I wear my skull cap like this, ask me anything and I'll grant it; when I wear it another way, don't try that because I won't do anything you ask. The wife then puts her arms akimbo and tells him -- when I hold my arms like this, I don't give a damn how you wear your stupid cap!
Morale -- don't expect total docility 'cause you won't get it.
Posted by: A Tykhyy at Jul 28, 2006 10:25:42 AM
From a 'marriage market' perspective, it would seem to me that the problem is that at the start, this 51-year-old bachelor has a great deal of value in the market (representing a ticket to the U.S.) but it is unavoidable that that value will decline (once she has permanent legal resident status in the U.S. and no longer depends on his sponsorship and also when a divorce would result in a division of property). Similarly, any foreign bride starts out with diminished value but that value will increase (when she gains resident status, gainful employment, English skills, and claims on marital property).
Given that, what should he do? I would say that he needs to think about not pressing his current advantage as far as possible but rather finding a woman who is more likely to want to stay with him when that inevitable 'marriage market value' shift occurs. The most obvious thing he should do is to look for a woman who is much nearer his own age rather than one much younger.
Posted by: Slocum at Jul 28, 2006 10:36:56 AM
A Tykhyy: Ukraine with the "the" is an older usage, now discouraged by the house style of many eminent magazines today. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine ("Syntax" section) for more details.
Posted by: Vishy at Jul 28, 2006 10:50:30 AM
So the "foreign woman" bit probably is an artifice to avoid admitting bachelorhood is his preferred long-run equilibrium.
I think it more likely that he wants to marry a foreign woman because his relative wealth and citizenship status will compensate for his advanced age. He will therefore be able to attract a younger, more beautiful wife than he could in the states, where his citizenship status confers no particular benefit, and his wealth doesn't confer a great advantage (as the women in the U.S. can easily earn enough to support themselves comfortably.)
If he is counting on his wealth, and citizenship status to confer an advantage, then it would seem that he would want a woman who wants him, at least in part, for his money (or access to money). If he's not counting on his wealth and citizenship status, then why does he want to marry a foreign woman? What characteristics of foreign women does he prefer over native women?
He should avoid countries which lost the Cold War.
Why? Women seeking to leave ex-Communist states may be less likely to have illusions about the virtues of socialism (unlike U.S. women, who've never lived through it). They may also be less materialistic and more appreciative of the wealth that is available in the U.S.( unlike U.S. natives who have become habituated to it.)
Avoid women met in hotels or hotel rooms.
It depends on why they are at the hotel. If they're prostitutes, then of course, the usual downsides of dating prostitutes apply. But if they're there for a scientific or business conference, then why not?
Avoid countries which generate large amounts of spam.
The U.S. is the largest generator of spam.
Hepatitis counts as a minus.
Yes, it's a minus, but how does that help him avoid gold diggers?
How about a plus for women who work in agriculture?
I could see farm women being more pragmatic, less materialistic, hardworking, blunt. But they might also be less mannered, less intellectual. It depends on the woman, and what you value.
If he's seeking someone who will be affectionate, kind, loyal, hardworking, smart, responsible, then I think he will have to do what he would do if he were looking for a good wife in the states. Spend time getting to know her and her family. Take trips together. Observe how she treats other people, especially those serving her (maids, waiters, etc.) How does she spend her money? Does she pressure you to buy gifts, expensive trips? What does she like to do? Is she easygoing? Does she like many of the same things you do? What are her goals?
If he does those things, odds are, most women only interested in him for his money will exclude themselves.
Posted by: Christopher Rasch at Jul 28, 2006 10:57:25 AM
Two comments,
1. If you want verification, plan to live in the home country of your bride. If she loves you she won't need
a golden USA ticket.
2. Clearly, Mr. Cowen has Russian Imperialist leanings. But I think The Ukraine sounds better as a title
no matter the political conotations.
Posted by: RWP at Jul 28, 2006 11:06:58 AM
A piece of advice I gave to one such hubby-wannabe who was considering bringing his "girlfriend" over to the States: Ask her to purchase the ticket where she is, and send way too much money. (Like an extra $1000 over and above the expected cost of the ticket.)
If she absconds with your extra money, consider it a very cheap lesson -- you acquired the information at a very early stage, and avoided a much more serious loss later on. The value of engineering an opportunity to signal her type: priceless.
P.S. They are now happily married.
Posted by: ModalHubby at Jul 28, 2006 11:31:04 AM
A friend of mine actually wrote an article where he travelled to Thailand with a group of bride-seekers, led by a "broker." His feature story is here: http://www.westword.com/Issues/2006-03-02/news/feature.html
The broker in the story drops do's and don'ts throughout.
Posted by: Saxdrop at Jul 28, 2006 11:32:20 AM
Make sure she realizes your true financial worth (lack of it). I had a friend who married a asian women while an expatriot. The guy made around $30,000/year yet when asked how much she thinks his salary is, she said "$600,000". She got all her information on Americans from Soup Operas.
Posted by: Jack Starr at Jul 28, 2006 11:51:44 AM
It cheers my heart to see heterosexuals upholding the sanctity of marriage.
After all, the idea of marrying for love is a modern perversion, undermining what has been a perfectly good economic strategy for more than 2,000 years... it's heartening to see him going back to basics, upholding tradition, and thinking about the bottom line.
[As you can see, I'm a little snarky on the subject of marriage these days.]
Posted by: Tony at Jul 28, 2006 12:57:02 PM
Hey! Y'all are making some pretty nasty assumptions about my friend here.
He is *not* a creep, he's just unskilled at attracting and dating women. That plus having worked long hours to the detriment of his social life for many years is why he is unmarried. Yes, he should have made his personal life a higher priority if he wanted to be married and have kids by now, but he realizes his error and is trying to reform.
Also, it wasn't his idea to seek a foreign bride, it was my suggestion to him based on his lack of luck with women in the US. From what I've read, and heard from men who have married women in or from other countries, is that women in other parts of the world prioritize different qualities in the men they're looking for. Many of them come from cultures where the men are very sexist, abusive, cheat on them, and are irresponsible about taking care of their families, and they've heard that American men generally treat their wives better than men in their home countries do. These women would be thrilled to find a nice man who treats them well and makes enough for a middle class standard of living. Whereas American women expect that as the minimum and also want men who are rich, handsome, suave, powerful, etc.
He's *not* interested in marrying a signficantly younger women, nor is he just looking for an obedient maid who puts out. He's looking for an intelligent, educated, professional woman, preferably a single mom seeking a good father for her children since he's a little old to start making new kids from scratch.
His concern about golddiggers comes from his one prior experience writing to Russian women. After a couple of emails exchanged they started asking him to send them money. He's also worried about marrying a woman who only pretends to love him long enough to get a green card, then leaves him.
The reason I asked Tyler for advice is because Tyler mentioned once that he thinks people who are a little weird do better with foreign spouses because there's some ambiguity whether the weirdness the spouse perceives is cultural difference or because the person is just weird. My friend is a moderately weird economics professor too, so I thought he might find it easier to date foreign women who are already going to assume he's weird and not hold that against him so much.
Meanwhile I'm also trying to help him out with stuff that will increase his attractiveness to local women (and women in general) like, oh god, his fashion sense.
So, if y'all have some *helpful* advice for my friend and not just declarations of his creepdom we'd love to hear it. I sincerely think he'd make a good husband and father, unfortunately the skill set to be a good husband and father is different than the skill set required to attract a wife in the first place.
Posted by: The Loyal MR Reader at Jul 28, 2006 1:04:23 PM
Oh, and thanks Tyler for the India suggestion. The educated professional women there should all already speak English so that solves one of his biggest worries about dating/marrying a foreign woman ("but I want someone I can talk to!") right there.
Posted by: The Loyal MR Reader at Jul 28, 2006 1:11:39 PM
Hmmmm. He wants a wife but specifically a young, foreign wife. Why foreign? Because he is not appealing enough to attract a young, American wife? Well, if that's the case then consider:
1) He'll probably be, on average, equally appealing to foreign women on all axes EXCEPT wealth, where he may be more appealing to poor foreign women.
2) Given #1, it seems that the group of foreign women that he is likely selecting for is that of golddiggers, i.e. those who value his relative wealth more strongly than other women (other young, foreign women will be interested in him just as much as young American women)
Posted by: Kevin Postlewaite at Jul 28, 2006 1:13:50 PM
RWP: The Germany, The France, The Russia, The Ireland, The Sweden. Need I continue?
Posted by: A Tykhyy at Jul 28, 2006 1:20:43 PM
A Tykhyy, the only difference is that Ukraine is stressed on the second syllable, whereas all the other countries that you mentioned stress their names on the first syllable.
The only countries I can think of off the top of my head that stress their names on the second syllable are Japan and Brazil (I'm sure more would come to mind, but I think 80-90% of country names have first syllable stress).
Although I agree that there's no reason to say "the" Ukraine, the different stress pattern might be a reason that it's easier for the article to stick.
Posted by: Tim Galebach at Jul 28, 2006 1:27:43 PM
