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Opposite day: Tyrone on resource pessimism
The very first economics piece I wrote was a high school debator's guide to using Julian Simon's The Ultimate Resource. I mentioned this to Tyrone, and he flew into a rage. He asked me to reproduce his email to me on MR. Sadly it is no better than his usual tripe...
Tyler, you are always so optimistic. But your own "dismal science" offers neither empirics nor analysis to back this attitude up.
The standard economic arguments about resources focus on the margin, while the real problem is infra-marginal. Don't be misled by all that talk of prices and substitution. We are running out of resources and soon.
Think about eating your beloved dark chocolate, Tyler. Let's say you have only four squares left of Lindt in the cupboard. Yes, as you eat more the shadow price of each remaining square goes up. Big deal. You are still going to eat all the chocolate before dinner. Economics tells us only that you will end up on the Pareto frontier, but that frontier still has some pretty miserable points. We are about to approach them. Who cares if prices mean that we meet our doom while equating private first-order conditions? We are simply too voracious for the resources at our disposal.
Market signals and property rights do not work for the globe as a whole, unless you have monopoly ownership of the entire world (hmm...). Property rights work best for local problems, such as fishing in a single lake or who should wash the dishes. Private property won't cure the problems of bad air, poisoned oceans, global warming, or the overall carrying capacity of the planet. We will get doom, doom, and more doom.
The real question is empirical: are global demands for resources big enough so that the problem resembles you with your four squares of chocolate? Yes. The environment is toast, sooner or later and probably sooner. And it is doomed precisely because capitalism is such a wonderful productive machine. Do you really think you can fill the planet with so much rapacious human biomass without significant and indeed overpowering external effects? Our only hope is that we all become plugged-in machines who don't need much of an environment any longer.
It is true that resources prices have been falling, on average, for some time now. But the Industrial Revolution is a remarkably recent development and we are just getting started. Mankind's current productive powers truly are unprecedented, a fact which you libertarians love to stress in other contexts, just not this one.
It would be mere luck if energy-saving technologies outraced nature-destroying ones. And even if this were the case for a while, energy-saving technologies, in the long run, simply encourage us to raise our rapaciousness up another notch. The infra-marginal becomes even more infra- than we ever dreamed.
Now let us get speculative. Did I mention that in the economics of the future -- once we are in exponential growth modes -- the concept of price will hardly matter? It will be more like an engineering problems where 10x of today's gdp is produced every week, and we have to see whether this wrecks the globe in ten or rather twenty years' time. Don't even bother recycling. Furthermore all you futuristic nerds out there should downgrade the relevance of price theory, given the size of the changes you have in mind.
My parting shot: Maybe you think I am a pessimist. But it probably is better if resource pessimism is true. Life as a hunter-gatherer is still life. And those Pygmies produced some pretty good vocal music. If the price of energy were to keep falling, that would mean everyone could, within a few generations time, own the destructive power of a nuclear weapon in his or her iPod. Now that's scary.
As I have said in the past, Tyrone really is a pessimistic fellow. If that dark chocolate is gone, it is usually because I ate it in advance, knowing he would otherwise steal my supply. There are only so many cupboards in the kitchen, and Tyrone has learned all my hiding places. And why didn't I buy more at the store in the first place? It is simple: I had to take Tyrone to his Zen Buddhism class; this sad sack doesn't own a car.
Posted by Tyler Cowen on April 12, 2006 at 07:10 AM in Economics | Permalink
Comments
A branch of the Commerce Clause and Treaty Power theories of law implicitly deals with the "monopoly ownership of the entire world" problem. It started with migratory bird treaties, and includes the EPA. That's what Kyoto was too, however poorly designed: an attempt to bring those externalities inside the system.
Posted by: Brock at Apr 12, 2006 9:07:01 AM
Try Rausch for some good chocolate (search in German), and for the best, it is Vosges - hands down.
Posted by: mickslam at Apr 12, 2006 12:36:37 PM
Lindt? I'm disappointed in you Tyler. I guess you can't get Neuhauss in DC, but you can surely find something better than Lindt at Wegmans, or at least I hope you can.
I'm even more disappointed in Tyrone. "once we are in exponential growth modes?". He must mean once the next exponential growth mode becomes dominant. But really now, none of our current concers stretch out that far.
Posted by: michael vassar at Apr 12, 2006 1:22:44 PM
If the price of energy were to keep falling, that would mean everyone could, within a few generations time, own the destructive power of a nuclear weapon in his or her iPod. Now that's scary.
Does one argue with Tyrone -- or does that only encourage him?
But c'mon Tyrone, at least try to be plausible. Anyone can see that iPods have been shrinking--not growing into personal WMDs. Future iPods won't blow anything up -- the problem will be finding them among the lose change in your pocket.
More seriously, the iPod could be the quintessential example of an energy-footprint reducing technology. Not only does the iPod replace a stack of stereo equipment and groaning shelves full of discs, electronic distribution replaces factories, trucks, warehouses, and retail shops (all requiring lots of energy) with streams of bits on the wire. Tyrone's really out to lunch on this one.
Posted by: Slocum at Apr 12, 2006 2:32:11 PM
Lindt? I'll only get worried if you are fighting over Sachertortes.
Posted by: Barkley Rosser at Apr 12, 2006 4:28:44 PM
To Tyler:
I don't think economic and probabilistic arguments are enough to either validate or invalidate the
impding doom scenario(s). You need to investigate the arguments on their own merit, which is almost
always peeking outside of the markets.
One problem that economists seem to have, is a conviction that "stuff" comes from the Markets, forgetting
that it is physics that reigns above all. And considering our still rudimentary understanding on
the physical mechanisms of resource formation, I am skeptical that the Markets somehow correctly
gauge the time-value of resources into their prices. And from this follows that the typical economic
incentives probably won't work for much of resource use. There are numerous examples of this such
externality failures - nearly all fish and other valuable wildlife destroyed in some places during
the 19th century, poisoned air and water in most industrial cities in the 70's, decimated rainforests
that lead to large-scale changes in biodiversity and geology.
So I don't feel that purely economic arguments are complete. At best they lead to trivial solutions, like
that if we run out of oil, the market will provide buggies and whips for everyone. In every case you need
to investigate a problem at hand using a multitude of aspects.
Posted by: Max at Apr 12, 2006 8:31:11 PM
What does the chocolate example prove? It's not being traded in a market.
Tyrone ignores the mediating effect of price. If nature-destroying technologies outrace energy-saving ones then prices of natural resources will rise and move investment will go into finding energy/resource saving technologies.
Posted by: Tracy W at Apr 12, 2006 9:19:03 PM
The trouble with Tyrone's arguments are that he knows he's wrong, and so his arguments are no better than intellectual wanking.
Posted by: Russell Nelson at Apr 13, 2006 2:36:35 AM
Moreover, because Tyrone knows he's wrong, he's sneaky. He knows *why* he's wrong, and so he acts affirmatively to hide and obfuscate information. Most people are simply ignorant of facts, poor at logic, or simply haven't applied facts and logic together at the same time. Tyrone is not one of those people. He has no desire to learn the truth. He already knows the truth, and doesn't like it.
Posted by: Russell Nelson at Apr 13, 2006 11:26:40 AM
Russell Nelson,
why is Tyrone wrong? All he is describing is the classic failure of externalities. There are plenty of examples in history where human activity depleted resources and subsequently, killed civilizations. Take Mayans and their corn crops that depleted the soil, or take the people of the Easter Island who destroyed their forest.
Market failures arise from invalid information that causes to incorrectly price-in the risks. Are you saying that there is no bad information on our current resources? That would be a surprise to me, considering how little we know about their origins, the prospects of their renewal, or the prospects of their substitution.
Posted by: Max at Apr 13, 2006 12:29:49 PM
As a marginal note.
Last night I was at Matchplay, a board game group that meets
every Wednesday at seven pm in Mountain View, CA.
I played Domaine with Eric. He mentioned that his hobby was
reviewing chocoloate stores on line and that he was up to 135.
If you've got to have a hobby...
edp.org
Posted by: wkwillis at Apr 13, 2006 1:44:18 PM
Max - And externalities/tragedy of the commons problems can be addressed by defining property rights. Tyler will ration his chocolate out before dinner if only if he knows Tyrone can't come and take it first. Otherwise, he should eat it all at once to prevent Tyrone from making off with any of it. Similarly, overfishing occurs because other fishermen will get the fish if you don't get them first, resulting in depeletion; whereas ownership of fishery encouages the owner to keep it a size which maximizes per year harvests. There are some cases where property rights of these sorts can't be carved out that easily (atmospheric CO2 is one of them) in which one falls back on having a gov't defined set point for the level of the negative externality and tradeable permits to produce it, but these cases are fairly rare.
If a resource crash does occur, I would expect it to be the result of price caps being imposed, since it would delay the switch to subsititutes until shortfalls in production started to occur. Market prices may not generate a perfect "soft-landing" when a resource is depleted, but the alternative would be the imposition of controls, which relies on regulators setting prices artificially via usage or price regulations based on their knowledge of resource reserves, costs and suitability of various substitutes, and future technological developments better than the diffused decision making of the market would. Given that regulators will invariably be using less information and have some perverse incentives because they are part of a political system, I'd expect a softer landing to be provided by they market determining price and usage. So if the market fails, odds were good we would have been doomed either way - I guess that is why Tyrone is such a pessimist.
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Posted by: levan at Sep 7, 2006 3:32:32 AM
What Tyrone is saying seems fairly sensible to me. But you seem to be having two separate arguments. Tyler is making an economic argument, and Tyrone is making a geological one. People assume that the planet (combined with capitalist ingenuity) is immune to the resource limitations a small island might experience. But they could be wrong. Given how much doubt there is, I think optimism and pessimism are both entirely reasonable. Even if we manage to transition between resources indefinitely, when the prices of alternatives turn out to be higher we might choose to bring them down by killing a whole lot of people.
My own view is that cutting world population in half (using birth control rather than mass murder) has got to make a fairly hefty dent in the problem.
I think his iPod point is a valid one too. For one, there's probably sense in keeping handheld devices at about the size of a hand. And even if iPods do become incredibly tiny, you don't have to fit nuclear-level bombs into an iPod case. You can put them in something slightly larger if you prefer. Probably capitalism will discover something to prevent frivolous nuclear-level explosions from killing anyone, so maybe we needn't worry.
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