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Strategies for breaking droughts
The still under-valued Megan (non-McArdle) writes:
Moving on, Sean asked me how I flirt with the guys I like. “Well, you know how I am usually friendly and smiley and I talk about dorky things? Just like that, only more.” “So if you saw a guy you liked…” “I would probably give him a hug like everyone else, and then tell him about the things I’ve been thinking about recently. Like right now I’m super into Geoffrey Chaucer’s blog, so I would be all ‘hah, hah, hah, and then, he makes fun of John Gower, hah hah’.” “And you still don’t score?” said Sean. “Remarkable.”
Here is the full and articulate post. Here are the writer's two (false) premonitions. Here is some background on the competition. Here is the author. Please restrict your thoughts to the polite, and apply game theory if at all possible.
Posted by Tyler Cowen on March 30, 2006 at 08:12 PM in Education | Permalink
Comments
She claims there is a "drought," but what are we really talking about here? One month? Two months? Such a duration doesn't count as a drought in my book. Thus, she is probably used to an unusually long run of good results, or just not used to any short spells of bad results. But I'm sure to her it *feels* long.
If the duration of the drought actually is longer, say a year, then we must assume she is being more selective. Or is more unlucky and this is just a fluke expected among the thousands of blogs out there.
I'm affraid her friend is giving her bad advice as well. She should not change her actions... the old saw that you should "be yourself" actually is sound wisdom, despite being so conventional.
Posted by: Macneil at Mar 30, 2006 8:52:14 PM
A female engineer? Who's into martial arts? Who's _not_ into girly fooferaw? * swoon *
Scott Adams said it best: "Female engineers become irresistible at the age of consent and remain that way until about thirty minutes after their clinical death. Longer if it's a warm day."
Posted by: Christopher Rasch at Mar 30, 2006 9:54:58 PM
From one of the links above:
I feel like I only have a few standards for my men: smart, funny, and nice all the way through. Height, looks, money? I didn’t think I cared.
Maybe the problem is that she's lying to herself.
Posted by: Josh at Mar 30, 2006 10:10:25 PM
Oh, right, strategies.
Strategy #1: Three words: portable fertility test.
Strategy #2: Mail Order Husbands
Strategy #3: One word: Utah
If none of those strategies works, then I guess you're, well, not screwed.
Posted by: Christopher Rasch at Mar 30, 2006 10:54:49 PM
"the old saw that you should "be yourself" actually is sound wisdom, despite being so conventional"
Crap. Utter, utter crap. Sorry but I couldn't think of another way to express my feelings.
"Being yourself" works fine, IF you are a naturally flirty, attractive type whose normal behaviour attracts members of the opposite sex. Such people just act like normal, it works fine for them, and they can't see what the problem is.
If your normal behaviour doesn't reel them in, then you need to change it. I wasted years before I worked that out.
Posted by: Patrick at Mar 31, 2006 2:30:06 AM
People who tell you about their "droughts" usually have "droughts" because they are just a leetle bit too caught up in themselves, which is why they think you want to know about their "droughts".
Posted by: dsquared at Mar 31, 2006 6:39:13 AM
A premonition about marriage isn't a premonition, it's a crush. Likewise, a premonition about someone you already know is going on a big trip is just a heightened form of nervousness or fear of abandonment. Both premonitions make me wonder if maybe Megan is sending men signals of clinginess without being aware of it. Or, to be more polite and to bring in game theory, perhaps men follow commitment-avoiding strategies that require them to be hypersensitive to any sign of a women wanting a commitment.
Thus, my #1 dating advice to her -- and to anyone else -- is that the less you appear to need a date/relationship/marriage, the more likely you are to get one.
This is my advice to Patrick, too: it is _always_ correct that you should "act normally" or "be yourself" in the limited sense that you should act as if you are just going about your normal, fun life without trying too hard to meet someone or being too upset if you don't meet someone. Yes, like all advice, "being yourself" can be taken too far, but it is right in a specific and limited way. Perhaps "always pretend you are just being yourself" would be better.
Posted by: DK at Mar 31, 2006 8:53:25 AM
Thought: what we have here is a woman who has specialized in a method of social relations that makes it difficult for any male in which she has romantic interests to determine whether she is, in fact, interested. Furthermore, it appears (based on a very limited reading of her blog) that the sort of men she would find romantically interesting are *precisely* the sort of men who normally find it difficult to determine whether anyone of either gender is interested in anything they have to say. [That is, they regularly over- or under-estimate interest in them by other people. Whether these errors are stationary or have a distinct trend will be important in a moment.]
So let's say our heroine finds herself in a group with several men of potential interest. Even if she attempts to weight her time and attention such as to make it clear (from her perspective) that she has an interest in one of them, they may not get it either because they're underestimating her attentiveness, or because of another suiitor's overestimating her interest in himself, and thus signaling to the true intended that he's out of the running (how a bunch of geeky guys do this is always fun to watch. It is significantly less fun to participate, but very fun to watch).
It seems to me that all our players suffer from the inability to signal adequately that they are interested in one another, due in no small part to their inability to understand anything less than the bluntest of statements. So let's cut the romance and go to blunt statements. She's an engineer; certainly she's carrying a little notepad & a writing implement. "Do you want to buy me a drink? Check yes or no.";)
Cheers,
hamilton
Posted by: hamilton at Mar 31, 2006 9:24:46 AM
If Megan is complaining about the lack of available single men, she ought to go to a science fiction fan convention. From what I've heard, those events are total "sausage parties," chock-full of single men. Granted, few if any of them will be typical Alpha Males, but I get the impression from her blog that Megan is not too demanding in that respect.
Posted by: Peter at Mar 31, 2006 9:41:03 AM
An out-there, buttkicking, dyke-flirting girl-geek eager to find dates with straight guys! I wonder what Ann Landers would make of Megan. Megan's mighty cute, though. You wouldn't think she'd have to do much beyond park herself at a bar and put on a semi-friendly expression. Hmmm, what kind of advice to offer? Game theory is 'way beyond me. But I have a hunch that short skirts and fishnet stockings have seldom hurt a girl's romantic chances ...
Posted by: Michael Blowhard at Mar 31, 2006 11:50:02 AM
As a girl who has long suffered from the same problem as Megan (non-girlyness) I can somewhat relate to her difficulties.
If she is truly interested in nerdy guys then she needs to learn that nerdy guys are by-and-large too scared to make the first move (or second or third). So not only does she need to amp up her basic flirting technique, but she needs to be willing to ask guys out. Otherwise she'll find herself in only platonic relationships with men.
Posted by: Christina at Mar 31, 2006 11:50:16 AM
As a Grade A Introvert, I'm with Christina. If Megan meets someone she likes, she should not indulge in all the hair flipping and simpering, instead she should just ask the guy out. She'll have a much higher success rate. She could coo all she wants at me and I may well not work up the nerve to ask her out, but if she asked I might either be delighted or not have the nerve to say no.
Once she's on the date, if she wants to break the drought, I'd say her probable success rate with the random male would be about 99.3%.
Posted by: bull at Mar 31, 2006 12:38:43 PM
A cute female engineer in California can't find a guy? That's rather implausible on its face, but hamilton's theory might be true in which case she can achieve immediate success by making first moves. Another possibility is that while she may honestly think she wants a nerd, her genetic programming is subconsciously rejecting them in favor of alpha males.
Posted by: Brian at Mar 31, 2006 12:58:47 PM
"If she is truly interested in nerdy guys then she needs to learn that nerdy guys are by-and-large too scared to make the first move (or second or third). So not only does she need to amp up her basic flirting technique, but she needs to be willing to ask guys out."
That's true, although in some cases merely starting up a conversation will be enough. A man who's just somewhat nerdy (or introverted) might need an "ice breaker" of that sort, and then once the conversation gets going might have enough nerve to ask her out. Nerdiness, like any other human characteristic, comes in degrees.
One thing I must add, however, is that today's politically correct climate has made it riskier for men to ask women out, what with the fear of being accused of sexual harrassment. While most men will know what's appropriate and what isn't, and will continue to approach women, an introverted man who's already afraid of women might worry enough about a false accusation that he won't be able to take the first step. And this is especially true in a work or school environment. I'm not particularly introverted, but if I were single I'd definitely be _very_ careful before asking a co-worker out. When your job could be at stake almost any risk is too much.
Posted by: Peter at Mar 31, 2006 1:06:21 PM
"If she is truly interested in nerdy guys then she needs to learn that nerdy guys are by-and-large too scared
to make the first move (or second or third)."
Bingo. Nerds, by definition, ahrdly ever scored during the critical years in adolesence. They don't believe they're attractive to women,
so you have to hit 'em with a 2x4 to get them to realise it. And don't be discouraged if they ask you to call them. It wasn't until I was in
my mid-20s that I realised when a woman hears that from a man she thinks: "He's not interested".
However, it does defy belief that a female engineer would have a hard time finding a nerdy man.
Peter (after a lot of good remarks, said):
"I'm not particularly introverted, but if I were single I'd definitely be _very_ careful before asking a co-worker out."
I'd say never, ever, do it.
Posted by: UrSA at Mar 31, 2006 2:07:18 PM
"Peter (after a lot of good remarks, said):
"I'm not particularly introverted, but if I were single I'd definitely be _very_ careful before asking a co-worker out.""
'I'd say never, ever, do it.'
The only situation in which it might be okay, emphasis on "might," is if she is in a different department of your company, you don't deal with her as part of your job responsibilities, and she is at the same (or slightly higher) level as you in the company hirearchy. And even then, proceed with extreme caution.
Posted by: Peter at Mar 31, 2006 3:23:01 PM
Megan is not in a drought; she lives in Sacramento! As a male, and fellow Sacramentan, I can sadly say she is working from a very limited universe...in that educated, outgoing and attractive is almost a handicap in this town.
Solution: For the next six months date EVERY person who asks (without bias). For each person you turn down - and you will - you MUST ask out up to five strangers within 24-hours and date at least two with in 72-hours.
Posted by: BDWnSAC at Mar 31, 2006 7:23:20 PM
As a nerdy guy who occasionally gets hit on by girls, I have to note that girls are very bad at it. They come on way too strong, don't try to establish rapport, don't really try to make the conversation interesting. It's as though, after a lifetime of suffering from bad pickups, they've gotten entirely the wrong idea of how it's *supposed* to work. Maybe they just never made the connection that guys who seem nice, interesting and witty are actually hitting on them, just like the jerks are. Maybe getting hit on more than doing the hitting inflates their opinion of their own conversational abilities.
The common factor of girls who have hit on _me_ with some degree of success is that they manage to convey some sense of picking me out of the crowd. They smile when they see me, they flirt. I'm the stereotypical clueless nerd, so they usually have to keep it up for a while. Guys will usually at least make a gallant effort at hitting on a girl if the girl seems nice and lets on that it will be welcome.
Maybe it's reinforcing the patriarchy to say this, but I would say that the best female strategy is to 1) give the guy some sense of being picked out of the crowd 2)flirt, and 3) respond to his lame pickup attempts more positively than they honestly deserve.
I don't know if I would suggest directly asking the guy out. It's kind of a fantasy for guys, but it's also kind of off-putting when it actually happens to you. Most guys have to feel like they did something to deserve the date, even if the actual substance of what they had to accomplish in order to get her to say yes is very small.
Posted by: Zach at Apr 1, 2006 8:43:09 PM
Zach's got some good words of advice: It's much better for the guy to feel "special." Many geek guys with think "OMG! She likes me" if a woman just walks up to them and introduces herself. If they think she's acting that way to every guy they'll assume she "gets around" and would lose interest.
And Zach is also right about the other point: guys can smell despiration a mile away, and sometimes the more attractive the woman, the more the guy would fear "oh man, there must be something seriously wrong with her."
Some more advice: guys also pick up on the other guys women hang out with. Certain crowds of men can add on negative scores to the woman. It's better to hang around more "safe" guys than single guys, for example.
Posted by: Macneil at Apr 1, 2006 11:10:56 PM
It does not matter to him what blouse you wear; it does not matter that you flip your hair; it does not matter if you wear 1016mm heels. One of the most attractive girl outfits is a T-shirt and jeans. The mere act of Megan entering a room will cause heads to turn and those that don't need to check their pulse. The blushing and girly flirting is superfluous. The moment you speak, males will discover that you are a "Trinity" in real life and it will no longer be about costume and performance, but about making a connection. Asking about someone's dissertation is flirting of the best kind: it reveals something about you and shows an interest in them.
I concur with Hamilton that signalling is a factor, specifically, overcoming the innate shyness and likely inexperience of the kind of man in which you express an interest. You will have to initiate the conversation: nerdiness and shyness go not hand-in-hand but hand-in-glove. There is a secret fear of being judged and found wanting, of saying something foolish or clumsy. One's awkwardness index varies as the cube of one's interest in someone else who, unexpectedly and unbelievably, is talking to them (he says, looking at his shoes). Be approachable but not the biggest personality in the room. Talk about what interests you, look directly at him, leave spaces in the conversation for him to step in, ask him questions that shows you're interested in what he has to say. Despite the signalling problems Hamilton points out, it is only through conversation that you will get past them.
So...what is *your* dissertation topic?
Posted by: Michael at Apr 2, 2006 1:20:46 AM
Michael,
"So... what is *your* dissertation topic?"
As I guy interested in geeky women, I like your question better than my note. I'm writing it down now for later use.;)
Thanks,
hamilton
Posted by: hamilton at Apr 2, 2006 2:19:43 PM
"As a nerdy guy who occasionally gets hit on by girls, I have to note that girls are very bad at it. They come on way too strong,"
As a (obviously even more) nerdy guy who has hardly ever been hit on by girls, the few times it happened: the stronger the better. It depends on how secure and confident the guy is I think. I found desperation attractive in a woman, it made me think I had a chance.
And I think I am prepared to believe "always pretend you are just being yourself". But just being yourself, when "yourself" is a shy person who never approaches anyone, is just wrong. Pretending that you are a flirty, confident, first move person who is just being yourself may work, but that's hardly what most people take "be yourself" to mean is it?
Otherwise, please explain 5 relationships in 13 years (0nly two lasting longer than a month or two) when I was "being myself" and about one per month once I gave that up in favour of forcing myself to go looking and make moves.
I still reckon the "be yourself" advice works only for people who are naturally good at dating, and they can't see that it doesn't work for people who:
-Are too shy to make the first move
-Can't read all these mysterious "signals" that people talk about.
-Don't have the self confidence to believe that that hair flip or whatever could actually mean she likes me.
-Think that just talking about interesting stuff (to them) will make someone interested in them.
So my refutation of DK's argument is that DK is clearly more attractive than me (taking personality and behaviour into account). It works for you, it didn't work for me. I needed to put in an effort to change.
And I'm happily married now, so don't need any more advice.
Posted by: Patrick at Apr 2, 2006 7:37:47 PM
Hey y'all,
I can't tell you how many times I hit refresh these past couple days. Thanks for all your thoughts and comments. Some of those ideas were new to me, some reinforced what I already thought about dorky men. Most of all, I just liked the reminder that there are cool, funny, thinkers out there for me to pass notes to. I hope we keep in touch.
Megan
P.S. You know I loved it every time y'all called me cute.
Posted by: Megan at Apr 3, 2006 12:53:03 AM
One problem here is that being a maximizer is no longer a good strategy. In the past, when your choices would have been much more restricted, maximizing was probably the best thing to do, but now it doesn't work so well. With larger communities, increased independence for women, and people staying single longer, the state space over which you're trying to maximize has just exploded in all kinds of dimensions. The attention this blog entry is getting is probably also expanding that space along geographical lines.
This drives search costs through the roof. I'm all for casting a wide net, but eventually you're just going to have to choose someone.
All of which is just a jargon-y way of saying that your friends who think you're too picky are probably right.
hmmm, there's probably a cheesy rhyme involving "advice" and "satisfice" in here somewhere...
Posted by: Mitch at Apr 4, 2006 2:58:20 AM
All of this has brought up some memories... (HM for 16 years)
I'm pretty far gone on the nerd/geek scale. To make matters worse, I deliberately choose to not even consider dating until I was nineteen. I found out later that I drove some poor girls crazy during that time.
I dated a total of five girls. Married #5. Only one could be considered a "pickup". The worst of the bunch. The others were all friends before.
I twice had girls/women through themselves at me. While I kinda realized it at the time, both were friends that I had ruled out. Note that I was trying to limit my dating pool to people I might marry.
Make friends. Then decide to date.
Posted by: Nathan Zook at Apr 4, 2006 10:18:35 AM
