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On-line economics education?
A loyal reader writes:
I'd like to expand my economics knowledge. However, as I just finished 4 years of night school, I do I want to start another degree program in a brick and mortar institution. Indeed, my wife would likely divorce me if I did.
Do you know of any reputable on-line Masters degrees in Economics? I need something more structured than independent reading but less time consuming than attending class. I am not that concerned if the degree and/or the granting institution is not generally accepted in the Econ field as long as the content is sufficient. I do not plan on using it as a major résumé item. I am skeptical of online degrees, but that cannot mean all are worthless. I've googled the subject, but I do not have enough information to pick the good from the bad. Any information will be appreciated.
I have no idea. Readers...? Comments are open. In the early days of MR Alex argued that professors will soon become obsolete (and follow up here) as technology like CDs and podcasts of [fill in your favorite economist] come to dominate the market. I said no way, there is something about having the person right in front of your face that triggers your biological "pay attention" alert mechanisms...
Posted by Tyler Cowen on February 21, 2006 at 04:17 AM in Education | Permalink
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Comments
I'm just a layperson, but lately I've been really enjoying the economics lectures available at The Teaching Company:
http://www.teach12.com/store/courses.asp?s=901
They're college-level video courses available on DVD along with transcripts. I wish they had more course material, but what's there is excellent quality.
Posted by: fjarlq at Feb 21, 2006 5:17:54 AM
I guess it all depends on the location of your reader. Here in Romania, the main university specialized in Economics and related fields (things here are a different) offers Long-distance Open Learning, or something like that... The class content is a mirror image of the stuff full-time students do: you get access to PDFs with all class content and email interaction (and maybe by phone also) with teachers. You must only attend the physical institution on exam day, so they can make sure you're not cheating.
As for materials, truckloads is available at:
Lecture Notes Online (EconPhD.net)
http://www.econphd.net/notes.htm
for graduate level. It's a selection of online resources published by major institutions in the US.
P.S. If you plan on doing a readers-questions series, could I send you one? Thanks!
Posted by: Gabriel Mihalache at Feb 21, 2006 5:38:46 AM
Well, my favorite place to go is OpenCourseWare at MIT, though a lot of the stuff is pretty difficult.
General site:
http://ocw.mit.edu/index.html
Econ dept:
http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Economics/index.htm
Posted by: meep at Feb 21, 2006 6:01:22 AM
The first things I would read (okay, did read) are in no particular order:
Bastiat's The Law
Henry Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson
Thomas Sowell's Basic Economics, and Applied Economics
Every Thomas Sowell Column
Every Walter Williams Column
Chris
http://amateureconblog.blogspot.com/
Posted by: Chris Meisenzahl at Feb 21, 2006 6:47:45 AM
I took my introductory economics courses in a hybrid online class. We met once a week with the professor, but otherwise did our work out of the book, corresponded on a forum and with the professor by e-mail and by forum.
I actually enjoyed the experience alot, and it was much quicker than the traditional course. While still having the direct availability of the professor for questions and help.
Posted by: UberIcarus at Feb 21, 2006 8:42:29 AM
For incoming graduate students in food policy, who have never taken an economics course, we have been recommending the online texts by Hyman at www.dotlearn.com. Good use of online simulations -- essentially interactive graphical illustrations. Parke
Posted by: Parke Wilde at Feb 21, 2006 10:11:07 AM
CDs and DVDs!? No way. Why not teleconferencing? Students would file into an auditorium where the superstar hotshot lecturer is viewable. There will be question periods where a lower-level instructor gathers questions to send directly to the superstar. (Or, on thier laptops, students type in questions and can vote for other student questions to get answered. TAs will look for the best questions.)
After the interactive session, the co-located instructor could work on follow up problems or further review.
Posted by: Macneil at Feb 21, 2006 10:22:32 AM
I think CDs, DVDs, and live casts of some lectures would be a great idea, a sort of digital guest-lecture might great use of them, but I agree that they probably would not adequately replace a professor.
Posted by: Steven Schreiber at Feb 21, 2006 10:53:22 AM
The important question is how much of a "real" master's level program do you want to do? Many Americans are unprepared for the technical nature of grad school. If you don't feel up to working through a book like Microeconomic Theory by MasCollel, Whinston, and Green, you're essentially talking about learning "pre-master's" material. The articles and books mentioned by Meisenzahl are all undergrad level only. You need to book up on linear algebra, a rigorous proof-based text on real analysis, a general course in mathematical economics, and basic econometrics, and then work through the MasCollel equivalents such as the material in the lecture notes online at the PhD level.
Posted by: nn at Feb 21, 2006 11:38:32 AM
I disagree with nn and agree with meep. The standard grad econ micro text (MWG) is about as useful as a cinderblock and even heavier.
The MIT online resources are great. You can download all the lecture notes, problems sets and exams for a course, along with detailed solutions for the problem sets and exams.
Of course, they won't give you a degree but if it's knowledge you're after then I think the MIT site is the place to go.
Posted by: brian at Feb 21, 2006 12:25:05 PM
I've found only two institutions offering online masters programs -- both from the U.K.
http://www.mscemp.org/
http://www.londonexternal.ac.uk/prospective_students/postgraduate/wye/agric_econ/index.shtml
http://www.londonexternal.ac.uk/prospective_students/postgraduate/soas/fin_econ/index.shtml
http://www.londonexternal.ac.uk/prospective_students/postgraduate/wye/applied_enviro/index.shtml
If anyone knows of others, please post them. I continue to hope that some day day an accredited U.S. institution will offer such a program.
Posted by: CG at Feb 21, 2006 1:31:57 PM
Tyler, I disagree with your comments that "there is something about having the person right in front of your face that triggers your biological "pay attention" alert mechanisms".
I'm currently pursuing my MBA online at Arizona State University, and it was actually my econ class there that lead me to follow this blog, in addition to other econ blogs - out of my own personal interest in the subject, which it re-awakened.
I will agree that online is not as appropriate for undergraduate as much as master's students - I DO feel that most TRADITIONAL (e.g. 18-22 year olds, no "special circumstances") undergrads do lack the discipline to pay proper attention without someone right in front of them - but that statement as given is a bit too much of a blanket.
Posted by: dforester at Feb 21, 2006 1:40:14 PM
I completed the distance program from the University of London - SOAS that CG mentions above
http://www.londonexternal.ac.uk/prospective_students/postgraduate/soas/fin_econ/index.shtml
I'm not sure how the degree would really stack up if I was going into a career in Banking or Econ but I found the program and courses well done and the available resources top-notch.
One thing I would note is that if your math (calculus) is not up to scratch you might need some classroom or tutor assistance. Calculus, statistics and econometrics are tough subjects to tackle on your own and via email, despite comprehensive course guides.
Posted by: Rick at Feb 21, 2006 3:33:17 PM
Virginia Tech now offers a well-regarded distance M.A. in Poli Sci, and several schools offer masters programs in math. So a decent M.A. program in economics certainly seems feasible for any department that wants to allow itself to be really market-driven (GMU?). Academic standards can be kept high by simply doing as U. London does and requiring all distance students to have their work graded alongside that of residential students.
The puzzling question is why British schools seems to have less institutional resistance to the idea, and are therefore moving much faster in this area.
Posted by: CG at Feb 21, 2006 3:34:40 PM
Presumably there are economies of scale issues in offering an online economics masters. There may not be enough of a U.S. market to compensate for the fixed costs. In the British system (as I recall from long ago)an economics M.A. had more value than in the U.S., where economics graduate study usually meant a Ph.D. only. Since the British have a head start they will probably continue to support and dominate this niche, which is after all an efficient solution.
On that older question re replacing most professors...I was once admonished by a confident CEO that "The invention of the internet will make most of you obsolete! The traditional university is doomed - online instruction means students will be able to be instructed by the very best minds, without being physically present in a lecture hall." I replied that we already had technology like that for some time. It was called books.
Posted by: Paul at Feb 21, 2006 4:13:46 PM
What about the Open University based in England ?
http://www.open.ac.uk/
Posted by: George Colpitts at Feb 21, 2006 10:10:04 PM
Does going online for a degree signal how serious you are about a degree and future career? I've read a few replies stating that online is for knowledge only- not an actual resume enhancing degree. Does this online degree signal to potential employers, "I'm not serious for if I were, I'd get a degree from a brick and mortar."?
Perhaps going online is more efficient in the short term(from an economics perspective) but would going to a brick and mortar degree granting institution be more efficient in the long run?
Posted by: Anonymous at Feb 21, 2006 10:38:45 PM
OCW at MIT as mentioned above is fantastic for getting a basic reading list to get started. Also, a google search for a course name like "Microeconomics" and the word "Syllabus" will often yield resources as well.
I was an economics and political science major a decade ago in my undergrad, but I'm now in another field. I'm using OCW, other sites (and my old macro textbook!) and blogs to refresh myself on the subject as I'm contemplating a PhD within the next decade. I feel like I'm starting from scratch again though, especially with the mathematics.
Posted by: Fiona at Feb 22, 2006 1:43:57 AM
A few people have mentioned that online degrees will allow people to get instruction from the best thinkers (or most prominent scholars) in a particular subject area. This belief assumes that the most prominent scholar also means best (or at least good) teacher. It is not necessarily the case that prominent scholar and good teacher go together like lamb and tuna fish (what, you prefer spaghetti and meatballs?). Also, do people really think that a prominent scholar is going to want to spend a lot of his/her time teaching online classes? They usually became a prominent scholar BECAUSE they were able to "avoid" teaching 5-8 classes per year, and even then the classes they taught were very likely PhD level courses at "elite" institutions, training the next generation of prominent scholars. Also, if the prominent scholar can gain an audience, why would he/she want to teach Masters level students online when they could be spending that time talking to politicians and bureaucrats where politicians/bureaucrats could actually (a) implement the prominent scholar's policy proposals or (b) fund more of the prominent scholar's research, which is, I'm sorry to burst everyone's bubble, what most of them care about. As Paul said, if you want to know what the most prominent scholar is thinking, go buy his book.
Plus, what do prominent scholars get paid to give talks? I know someone who has begun TURNING DOWN $20,000 per day because the quantity of days demanded at that price level is too high, and is too taxing on his body. I hate this hypothetical stuff, but how much are you willing to pay for a semester of instruction from a prominent scholar? Or how many people do you think you can get to sign up for the class - but remember, the more people you can get to sign up for the class, the less time the prominent scholar will have for you the individual.
A few other notes. Someone mentioned reading Mas-Colell, Whinston, and Green (MWG) for the Master's level course. Do this only if you want to be totally UNPREPARED for what a Master's level job will require you to do, which usually has something to do with data, which MWG don't discuss. Learning a stat package (SAS, STATA, Eviews, MATLAB, SPSS, even Excel with the analysis toolkit) is a far better use of your time than MWG. Most Master's level jobs are not going to want you to wax philosophical about the world and what policies you think should be implemented, and how those policies are grounded in sound economic theory, they will want you to crunch numbers. Learn some stats or econometrics, but support that with an understanding of basic microeconomic theory or macroeconomic theory. Read Varian's undergrad intermediate micro textbook rather than MWG. I'm a micro guy, not a macro guy so I don't have many suggestions on the macro front. And learn a little about experimental econ.
Finally, the primary advantage of being at a brick and mortar institution is just the interaction with people on a day-to-day basis, especially if you are in graduate school. Look at where some of Tyler's and Alex's posts come from - "We were talking about this at lunch the other day ..." How many times are you going to email a random thought to a professor of an online course? Probably not very many times - you will ask questions about homework, the lecture, etc. But just being around the people on a daily basis and interacting with them is way more useful than any class that you take with them. Again, trust me on this, although I assume most grad students will ignore this advice and put their heads down in their books and work towards that A, which looks nice on a transcript, but when it comes time for a professor to recommend you for a job, if all they can say about you is "Student X took my class and worked hard and got an A" well then you are probably not in good shape. If they can say, "Student X took my class and got a B+, but I have come to know student X and this is why Student X is great" then you are much better off.
"If I can reach just one person with this message, it will be worth it." OK, not really - unless that person turns out to be the next prominent scholar, in which case I will expect a check sent to me for the advice.
Posted by: AZ at Feb 22, 2006 7:24:34 AM
George,
Unfortunately, the Open University offers no graduate program in economics and most of its other programs remain closed to U.S. students.
Posted by: CG at Feb 22, 2006 10:40:23 AM
Alex is right.
Lecturing will become obsolete. Professors will be shifted to the higher-quality are of Teaching. And by teaching I mean really answering questions and making sure that the lecture content was understood.
That's the optimistic variant. The pesimist would say that professors will be economized into examiners, who will be later made redunant by automatic tests.
Posted by: Oskar Shapley at Feb 22, 2006 12:03:48 PM
http://www.mscemp.org/ Strathclyde
A comment about British universities: London, Open, Strathclyde, all mentioned above.
All British universities use an external examiner system. One of the people who marks your paper
is from outside your university.
That, plus the fact that all universities answer to a government department re what they teach and their academic standards, means that British universities offer very similar qualities of degrees. An MSC from Strathclyde or London or Open University is a very similar beast.
That said, the diploma from LSE in Economics, will be a very good course. LSE is probably the strongest economics department in the UK.
http://www.londonexternal.ac.uk/course_search/course_search.php
(drop the 'at' to reply by email)
Posted by: John at Feb 25, 2006 4:40:48 PM
As a college economics teacher (undergrad), I'd like to say it depends on whether you want a degree or an education. You get a degree on-line and an education in the class room. There is more to a degree than simply reading a text. The internet doesn't have instant instructor feedback, plus it is frequently more difficult to explain a principle in simply the written word. We all typically speak better than we write. The internet lacks the ability to work effectively in a group, and learning to prepare and present your ideas to an audience is a vital job skill the internet doesn't permit. The internet isn't the best medium for a class disscusion. On the other hand, if you can read anything and understand it, the net saves a lot of time.
Posted by: Knobbie_Mike at Jul 2, 2006 8:09:58 PM
The thing that i have found hardest about graduate economics work (i did my under in math) is that it is possible to read about and understand a concept (in MWS) or any other text, and be completely stumped when it comes down to actually applying it (solving a problem, doing data analysis, etc). This is why the interaction of traditional brick and mortar institutions is so very very important. The learning happens after hour talking with your classmates, TA's , and hopefully instructors. There are problems that I have struggled with for hours on my own (with all the available course notes and texts) and understood after seeing my TA work the problem once (in 5 min). In my PhD program (about 100 students) i only know a few (<5) who truley work "independently".
Its not like math where you are given a theorm and them do a proof, or use it to solve a problem. In econ most of the work is sorting through literaly 100's of pages for texts and notes to find the relevent technique. Or any relevent technique.
Just my 2 cents but I cannot imagine doing grad level econ without being immersed in an envoirnment with others doing it as well.
- a note on the above post. ALL masters level econ jobs will be crunching numbers with SAS or STATA. If you are looking for a narketable skill, learning one of those packages is way more important that being able to find a "pareto optimal allocation".
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