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Is Grand Central Station still a focal point?
We all know Thomas Schelling's classic analysis of focal points. One of his original examples stipulated that two individuals are to meet somewhere in New York City, but they do not know the time or place. Where would they appear? Schelling suggested that a twelve noon meeting at Grand Central Station (actually called Grand Central Terminal), beneath the central clock, would be focal.
Focal points change, and of course trains have become a less important form of transportation. I have been to Manhattan many times, but have not been in GCS in a good twenty years. And when I take the train, I usually end up getting off at Penn Station. Stick with noon as the time, which place would you find focal today? I see a few options:
1. The clock at Grand Central Station remains focal. Where else to go? Note the clock stands above the designated information point as well.
2. The clock remains focal, but only because Schelling himself has kept it that way with his analysis.
3. Ground Zero.
4. The Empire State Building.
5. The US Air Shuttle Terminal at La Guardia.
6. A central point at Times Square.
7. The Metropolitan Museum of Art or perhaps at Picasso's Les Demoiselles D'Avignon painting at MOMA.
I will opt for number two, but for my mom I would wait on the stairs of the Met. What do you think? Comments, of course, are open.
Addendum: Brock Sides picks a focal point for Memphis and for the world; on the latter I say in front of The White House.
Posted by Tyler Cowen on October 20, 2005 at 06:11 AM in Economics | Permalink
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Comments
In his Richmond Fed interview, Schelling said the clock was no longer focal. For non-Americans I think it never has been: has to be the top of the empire state building.
Posted by: Tim Harford at Oct 20, 2005 8:02:51 AM
My wife and I have taken many bus trips up to NYC and our drop off point is usually the Radio City Music Hall. So, if I told my wife to meet me in NYC with out knowing the time or place the logical meeting place would be Radio City Music Hall. The time on the other hand is more difficult but probably 10 am, which is our normal drop off time.
If two individuals know each other, the time and place might be different than for two people who do not know each other.
Posted by: Tom at Oct 20, 2005 8:41:59 AM
I have never been to NYC but I played this game with my Poli-Sci and Econ classes after the Schelling win and it was amazing how well it worked. In our town (Athens, GA) it is the Arch at Noon.
Posted by: goodness_of_fit at Oct 20, 2005 9:03:04 AM
I would first check your reference group bias. If you hope to meet a woman (of the non-economist variety) you would be better served by going to the top of the Empire State Building at midnight.
Posted by: Colleen at Oct 20, 2005 9:07:15 AM
1. [...] Note the clock stands above the designated information point as well.
This coupling of where and when is why one chooses 1.
Posted by: nnyhav at Oct 20, 2005 9:21:55 AM
Most of the proposed alternatives require greater specificity: unlike GCT, there's no obvious focal point in the absence of a specified location within the greater parameter.
The elegance of the GCT focal point is precisely that there is only one really obvious location to meet, in the absence of such specificity. Though in my parents' generation, you might have made out a case for the Oyster Bar...
Posted by: David Hecht at Oct 20, 2005 9:24:04 AM
Two possibilities: (1) Zabar's--everyone ends up there eventually, and there's no harm in stuffing yourself with free morsels while you wait. (2) Or by the Naked Cowboy in Times Square. The square itself so swarms with people that it'd be impossible to find someone without a focal point within the focal point. Yet it's hard to miss a man in the middle in nothing but a Stetson and tighty whities.
Posted by: Tim Gray at Oct 20, 2005 9:26:18 AM
If this is any help:
When I was about 12, my father who is a professor of moral political philosophy, but also very economics based, asked me the Schelling question at the dinner table (scary dinner table, no?).
It took me a minute, and I said the Empire State Building at Noon. I think for younger generations, GCS never meant anything, but the Empire State Building always did. (Even more so than the World Trade Center did at the time)
So, I'd say it's the Empire State Building for people younger than 30.
Posted by: JW at Oct 20, 2005 9:38:22 AM
For sports fans, I'd say at the giant bat outside Yankee Stadium. If you went with Times Square, it'd probably be by the TKTS booth or the Army recruiting station, as they're the most memorable buildings within the square.
Posted by: Devin McCullen at Oct 20, 2005 9:40:36 AM
I wonder if Schelling is the focal point for this particular meme. I first encountered the "meet in NYC" problem in the mid-70s. It wasn't even in an economics class! (It was German class). The proposed solution was "under the clock at the Biltmore". I remember wondering what the Biltmore was and what its clock looked like!
Posted by: mcostello at Oct 20, 2005 9:54:21 AM
Tyler, first off, if you haven't been to GCS in 20 years, make a special trip. The restoration work there is nothing short of breathtaking.
Second, for younger generations, there's little doubt it's the 86th floor of the ESB. Too many movies and too many off-the-cuff references to it.
The sad part is, it's a terrible place to actually meet. The lines can be as long as 6 hours (Tom Hanks films notwithstanding) and even once you're up there, it's an awfully large observation deck.
PS: Ground Zero as a meeting place is just, well, morbid.
Posted by: Freeman at Oct 20, 2005 9:55:04 AM
I wonder if Schelling is the focal point for this particular meme. I first encountered the "meet in NYC" problem in the mid-70s. It wasn't even in an economics class! (It was German class). The proposed solution was "under the clock at the Biltmore". I remember wondering what the Biltmore was and what its clock looked like!
Posted by: mcostello at Oct 20, 2005 9:57:01 AM
I remember this one from an economics class in the early 90s, out in California. Nobody picked the clock at GCS, several people actually matched up, and I would have been alone at my choice: Statue of Liberty at dawn. I thought it would be easier to find somebody if nobody else was there.
Since then, I've been to GCS, and would choose that, just because the building is beautiful now
Posted by: tex at Oct 20, 2005 10:08:04 AM
Second the recommendation to visit GC, it was really quite a transformation.
I've often used the clock (though only when meeting someone before or after a train).
It has the advantage of being very specific and easy to get to and find from anywhere.
No New Yorker would think of LGA, for example -- not easy to get to from many places,
and you could both be there and still miss eachother. Even someone completely ignorant
of NY could come here, ask a stranger where they're supposed to meet, and eventually find it.
Basically, I think you require an obvious place and a very clear location within that place.
Steps of the Met works. Too many possibilities in Times Square (some would say "under the ball"
but then might not be able to figure out where that is). ESB could mean out front or wait in line for
6 hours to go up, who knows.
I read a discussion of the more general problem once (perhaps here?) that suggested that if you
had to meet someone in an arbitrary town, the best answer is the post office.
Posted by: Franco at Oct 20, 2005 10:11:46 AM
Why don't you just call the other guy on his cell phone and meet right away rather than wait until whenever? Seriously, the original question is mostly about common culture and it's not as interesting a question today due to the advent and cheapness of mobile phones.
Posted by: NASA Flunky at Oct 20, 2005 10:13:57 AM
I would recommend the statute of George Washington at the south end of Union Square Park. It's easy to reach, being steps from a subway station at which several lines converge; has no-cost, 24/7 access; and is not so crowded that it would be easy to miss one another (unlike Times Square or GCT), but never gets desolate even at night.
Posted by: Peter at Oct 20, 2005 10:38:05 AM
Times Square; although there isn’t an obvious ‘clock’ within TS. Below the giant electronic billboard perhaps, which historically has usually been used by Coca-Cola. The TKTS booth is also a good suggestion though. If you’re meeting someone in New York during the winter though I would go with the skating rink at Lincoln Center.
With three airports, choosing the terminal for only one of them cannot be correct. New York also has multiple train stations and ‘major’ subway junctions, so none of them can be focal either. Thanks to the Chinese Bus Cos. there isn’t even a singular bus terminal. New York’s transit system, and its connections with the national transit systems, simply don’t have a ‘center’ any more. I think the focal point of New York would have to be cultural; and a ‘cultural’ which all Americans and even non-Americans would relate to. That’s why I favor Time Square over the Met.
Peter’s suggestion for Washington’s statue in Union Square is a good one for the reasons he gives, but it requires local knowledge. I don’t think it’s well known outside of New York. I certainly didn’t know about it before I moved to NYC.
Posted by: Brock at Oct 20, 2005 10:57:50 AM
Incidentally, what's the focal point for Washington? Probably something on the mall. I'd probably be waiting on the east side of the Washington monument, looking at the Capitol. At least then if you have to wait past noon, you'll be in the shade.
Posted by: C L at Oct 20, 2005 11:11:25 AM
I always meet my ex-girlfriend at the Lion Statues in front of the New York Public Library. It's at 42nd and 5th. We never DECIDED that would be "our place." But it was so simple and central; that's what it has become. Next to Bryant Park, it's lovely. Highly recommended.
Posted by: chuquito at Oct 20, 2005 11:20:14 AM
FWIW, when I lived in the East I always met people under the information display at Penn station, which covers both the train itself and Newark airport.
Washington and NYC are relatively easy cases because they have distinct cores. For instance, I notice that it's taken for granted that the NYC Schelling point is in Manhattan. Where exactly would you meet someone in Los Angeles? LAX (but which terminal)? Union Station (but nobody takes the train)? Graumann's Chinese?
(Note that the question isn't of sprawl per se but the diffusion of both traffic and symbolic resonance. As a counter example to LA, I think OC is pretty simple -- you meet at the front gate of Disneyland).
To combine two of Schelling's theories, I wonder if having a Schelling point requires one spot to have some sort of iconic and logistical critical mass? That is, if too much of a city's fame and traffic is dispersed across too many sites, no one place will emerge as the obvious leader and the person you're meeting better have a cell phone.
Posted by: Gabriel Rossman at Oct 20, 2005 11:28:21 AM
I'm with the empire state building, but not the top, too expensive. Since the public has never heard of the relevant experiment, the experiment is probably not determining except among economists.
Posted by: michael e vassar at Oct 20, 2005 12:12:05 PM
It depends by a minimum of shared information between the two individuals. For my mother, a movie buff with a passion for Woody Allen's films, the focal point is the sitting bench over the Brooklyn Bridge as in the movie "Manhattan." A couple of years ago we took a "blind test" - where would you go if we get lost in some of the major cities without a meeting point? The "Manhattan" bench worked for NYC. We would have never found each other in London, Paris, and Rome, but a Godiva chocolate store would have saved us in Cologne, Germany.
Posted by: Tobia Mill at Oct 20, 2005 1:00:24 PM
Gabriel Rossman:
the answer for LA is trivial:
Gruamans chinese at Marilyn's footprints for anyone in LA less then two years.
Tommy's for everyone else.
http://www.originaltommys.com/story.html
...and Yes, the front gate at DisneyLand is the obvious answer for Orange County. I live in Orange County, and I had come to the same conclusion before I read your post -- so we've already go a match!
Posted by: tylerh at Oct 20, 2005 1:46:05 PM
Between the lions at the NY Public Library is good, though I continue to use the clock at Grand Central.
Posted by: carpundit at Oct 20, 2005 2:06:57 PM
I chatted about this with a colleague and we had instant answers for Washington DC - however, different ones. I would have gone to the Lincoln Memorial; he would have gone to the Capitol steps. After a bit of thought we both decided that the Washington Memorial was more central, but our initial instincts were still where we would probably go.
No definitive answer for NYC, unfortunately.
Posted by: Michelle at Oct 20, 2005 2:15:32 PM
